Hybrid

Just some fun to show. Links, pics or movies.

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Sam
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Re: Hybrid

Post by Sam » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:04 pm

Welded and satin polished

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Re: Hybrid

Post by stew79 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:53 pm

hi sam, this is a great project. different makes of parts coming together, with made up stuff in between. have you any experience with these engines ? are you going to race it ? what power are you hoping for ? i have some of these engines, but found the 400cc version is so much better / faster (longer con rod) once you replace out the dull, wrong ig timing, fit some better carbs, (yours look expensive !) do some basic porting, skimming, lighten the crank and fly wheel etc (use 250 H*nda rotor with half the magnets removed) it really comes alive !! (then the gears where out, and the crank cases fret together near the oil pump as there arnt enough bolts holding it together ! (can be sorted with machining / more bolts) yam could have made a much better engine and beaten H*nda !
stew

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Re: Hybrid

Post by Sam » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:21 pm

I've no experience with the xt 600 motor I intend on opening the ports also splitting the motor to check it over. Do you have any more detail on what can be done to the 600?
Last edited by Sam on Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hybrid

Post by minetymenace » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:34 pm

chrono classic from Stein Dinse is €480, about £400 at today's rates, I bought mine when the GBP was strong and earnings were good, so I didn't feel a thing. A couple of pictures here.
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Re: Hybrid

Post by stew79 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:58 pm

sam, i will sort out some pics etc and post them tomorrow. the "normal" way to liven up an engine on this site is to just fit a hotter cam. that alone cam give you a bit more go, but there is so much more to be had by doing other things. but just remember this engine is a bit weak.
stew

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Re: Hybrid

Post by Sam » Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:56 am

Cheers Stew!
I had looked at the Megacycle cams and pistons then thoght what about the rod is that strong enough. I had opted to open the ports and have taken the exhaust from two into one into two seperate pipes and upped the sise from 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 or should that be 31.75 to 38.1 .
I remember my mate Davie from Swona exhausts saying he hit a wall on the dyno with a twin port single motor which had a two into one, just before leaving for home he tried two seperat pipes which allowed the motor to breath more freely and gain more power as the motor had been acting as a pump getting rid of the spent gases.
This will be used for scratching around the country roads so not fussed for max power more reliability which will suit me, Im sure it will still be a fun wee bike to ride.

Sam

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Re: Hybrid

Post by stew79 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:45 am

hi sam here are some old pics of the 600 and 400. when i first made the new ignition i kept the silly std carbs but they are no good for wheelying (not proportional throttle opening ) so i used yam rd 250 carbs (28mm with dt250 spray tubes, 6dh3 needles etc) these open at the same time so give normal throttle control. they will be kept on the 400, but on the 600 is a 38 mik on a made up manifold. (just to keep things simpler) the new ig can be timed were ever you want, and can be made to adv / ret over any number of degrees at what ever speed you want (the yam ignition is a bit unreliable, dosent advance early enough, and dosent advance far enough) i use a cut down balancer from the 400 in the 600 with a more cut down balancer from a 400 in the 400 (if that makes sense) vibration is still minimal, but less strain on the balancer gears, cush-drive etc with the lighter fly wheel. the 400 went on the dyno at bdk racing and made 33 hp. not bad for all old parts (apart from one new head gasket) std cam, piston, quiet ish ex pipe (old micron that was on the bike when i bought it for £250 in 2000) good spread, smooth (more like a twin ?) and revs over 9000 rpm.
stew
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Re: Hybrid

Post by Sam » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:08 am

I had looked at using the siamese manifold but opted for the CR carbs. What squish did you run your motor with ?

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Re: Hybrid

Post by Barry Creary » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:45 am

Wow I'm still trying work how to get a B 50 going okay you guys are so advanced your out of my depth but like to try to understand Sam you are a amazing the things that you make and adapt to your bike <918 <917 <917

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Re: Hybrid

Post by stew79 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:15 pm

hi sam, 1 mm on 400 and 600. the 600 has a wiseco 12;1 piston (it was cheap of ebay) but i took 1 mm of the raised top to run it on super unleaded. there is a yam quad with a similar engine that has a 2 into 1 inlet manifold, but it looked too long. i made mine from a block of ally on the mill.
stew

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Re: Hybrid

Post by B44Claus » Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:53 pm

I totally agree with Barry regarding your skills and creativity Sam! :thumb
What about registration of such a heavily modified vehicle? Will it be considered a new motorcycle or can you have it registered as a BSA B50 using the original frame number?

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Re: Hybrid

Post by Sam » Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:23 pm

Its registered as a 600 now using frame and engine numbers present, also a bonus its tax exempt !!! :grin:

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Re: Hybrid

Post by B44Claus » Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:14 pm

It's amazing what you guys in the UK can get away with in terms of modifications and rebuilds!
In Denmark where I live you can't get anywhere near a motorcycle with a welding rod or it will be rejected at the MOT(if it's discovered off course). Installing an engine of a different make, type or capacity is definitely a complete no go. Basically a motorcycle shall remain original unless you can prove that non-standard parts are factory options or extra equipment approved by the factory.
If you manage to get a bike, with for example brakes from another make, through MOT you are not covered by insurance if you are involved in an accident. So you have to think twice what you do.. and for once these a not rules imposed on us from EU but national self inflicted!
Due to that you rarely see specials or quality recreations here in DK but lots of boring H-D wanna bees with loads of nasty chrome stuff hung on.

Wish I was in the UK..

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Re: Hybrid

Post by Sam » Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:33 pm

Its raining at the moment....still want to come? :grin:

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Re: Hybrid

Post by Sam » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:50 am

Silencers positioned in place, mounting brackets next.


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Re: Hybrid

Post by Sam » Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:40 pm

Headers prepared for welding

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Welded and satin polish

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Re: Hybrid

Post by Sam » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:15 am

Back loop cut off and new one made to suit the contour of the seat.

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Re: Hybrid

Post by Barry Creary » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:31 am

Wow Sam you never cease to amaze me with your expertise wish you were my neighbor :smile:

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Re: Hybrid

Post by stew79 » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:34 am

hi sam, its all looking very good, i cant get on with any of my projects due to lack of funds, too much work, not enough time ! you will be done in no time.
stew

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Re: Hybrid

Post by Sam » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:04 am

Start digging Barry, Stew ive not managed to get near this project since last September due to work and the next brewery build is not happening untill September so getting as much done as poss, I was in the workshop at 7.00 this morning seeing as im on a roll.

Sam

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Re: Hybrid

Post by Sam » Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:40 pm

Sprocket alignment achieved 5mm machined off the front sprocket and 6mm added to the rear.

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Re: Hybrid

Post by HPbyStan » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:07 pm

Nice work for sure. I like your swing arm :-)

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Re: Hybrid

Post by Sam » Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:20 am

It was you I got the idea from ! :cool:

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Re: Hybrid

Post by Sam » Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:54 pm

Spent today fabricating a floating caliper for the rear.

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I actually started trying to cut this with a jig saw but soon gave up.

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Now to make it lighter

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Re: Hybrid

Post by Sam » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:58 pm

Have made up a couple of oil strainers as I'll be feeding from the rear of the frame as well, found a fitting which is used on a Holly carb, it is 7/8 UNEF ( which is the same thread on the BSA chassis) with a -6 anc fitting which will be used for oil feed line.

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Side panels fitted

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Torsion bar

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Re: Hybrid

Post by beat » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:01 pm

<201
should this torsion bar not be attached to the swingarm on the other end ??
ore do I miss something ??

beat <017

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Re: Hybrid

Post by minetymenace » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:05 pm

The caliper support is on a bearing on the axle, so not necessary beat, but it will lock the suspension when the brake comes on (I think), maybe a form of anti-dive?
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Re: Hybrid

Post by Sam » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:13 am

Hi Beat,
if the torsion bar was attached to the swing arm the principle of the floating caliper would be lost, by attaching to the frame as Dennis the menace stated it is a form of anti dive which will help prevent the rear tyre skipping under heavy braking. When the caliper is attached to the swingarm or fixed, braking hard causes a sharp torque which is applied to the swing arm causing the suspention to compress.

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Re: Hybrid

Post by beat » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:31 pm

Hmmmm <201

IMO, the torsion bar attached to the fraim in state of to the swing arm will make a uneven, irregular brakeing effect when suspension is moving AND braking is used at the same time!

we have tried this in MX, sure ther is suspension in move all the time,- so in this case it was unusable.

beat <017

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Re: Hybrid

Post by Sam » Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:04 pm

Hmmm <201

I wonder why Husqvarna used it for many years and others followed suit later. :smile:
I have tried this on the road without problems in the past. I also had floating calipers on my road racing sidecar which worked great. Its done and its staying. :grin:

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Re: Hybrid

Post by beat » Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:35 pm

Hmmmmmm <201

if you are used on it -- GO for it :!:

beat :grin:

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Re: Hybrid

Post by skippy » Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:32 am

It would be interesting to see how it would go on our corrugated roads.
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Re: Hybrid

Post by Sam » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:38 am

Beat,

Did you have the torsion arm set up parallel to the swing arm? if not you would have been exagerating the forces which may have caused problems or dont you like change and things left as were? :smile:

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Re: Hybrid

Post by minetymenace » Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:51 pm

Won't it need to be a parallelogram, ie not just parallel with the swing arm, but also parallel on the other two sides?
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Re: Hybrid

Post by Sam » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:22 pm

minetymenace wrote:Won't it need to be a parallelogram, ie not just parallel with the swing arm, but also parallel on the other two sides?

Correct ! :smile:

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Re: Hybrid

Post by beat » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:37 pm

skippy wrote:how it would go on our corrugated roads.
this is the point where it shows most affection.

but it is simply to check it :

- set bike on center stand ( ore something like . )
- take off shock absorbers ( the nice Hagon ones :cool: ),
- block the brake disk in the caliper ( ore force brake lever )

- now move swingarm upwards and downwards AND watch the wheel: dos it make any rotating action ??

if YES, I say it is NOT usable.

if NO, ( no rotating, movement of the wheel wheilst swingarm in up and down action ) you are fine.

beat <213

BTW, mine was parallel, - let say nearly ( by 3 ore 4 mm ) when bike was on center stand.

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Re: Hybrid

Post by minetymenace » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:52 pm

with a parallelogram it should not rotate me thinks....
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Re: Hybrid

Post by Sam » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:22 am

The theory behind the floating caliper quoted from "Tony Foals Chassis design"

"Under breaking some rear suspension may be usefull in counteracting the change in the machine's attitude caused by forward weight transfer.But a serious problem may arise where there is no such parallelogram linkage and that the rear wheel judders under heavy breaking.

The sequence of events bringing this about is as follows: Sudden application of the rear brake applies a sharp torque to the swing arm tending to compress the suspension,and since the unsprung mass(of the wheel) is comsiderably less than the sprung mass,the wheel tends to leave the ground more quickly than the bulk of the machine tends to move downward.

As the wheel leaves the ground and the tyre therefore loses traction, the brake locks and so the compressing moment vanishes. When the wheel returns to the ground,still locked, it may skid,but the shock load on the tyre may cause sufficient sudden braking torque to set the whole process in motion again-and again.
Clearly, the best solution to this problem is the floating caliper brake anchorage, this is rare and it is more usual for manufacturers to tune the spring and change rates to supress it. Unfortunately, this introduces an undesireable compromise into the selection of suspension charachteristics, which are best determined by considerations of roadholding and comfort. "

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Re: Hybrid

Post by beat » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:29 pm

minetymenace wrote:with a parallelogram it should not rotate me thinks....
this is right, - but as far I can see in the picture, - this is NOT a parallelogram...
Sam wrote:"Under breaking some rear suspension may be usefull in counteracting the change in the machine's attitude caused by forward weight transfer.But a serious problem may arise where there is no such parallelogram linkage and that the rear wheel judders under heavy breaking.

The sequence of events bringing this about is as follows: Sudden application of the rear brake applies a sharp torque to the swing arm tending to compress the suspension,and since the unsprung mass(of the wheel) is comsiderably less than the sprung mass,the wheel tends to leave the ground more quickly than the bulk of the machine tends to move downward.

As the wheel leaves the ground and the tyre therefore loses traction, the brake locks and so the compressing moment vanishes. When the wheel returns to the ground,still locked, it may skid,but the shock load on the tyre may cause sufficient sudden braking torque to set the whole process in motion again-and again.
Clearly, the best solution to this problem is the floating caliper brake anchorage, this is rare and it is more usual for manufacturers to tune the spring and change rates to supress it. Unfortunately, this introduces an undesireable compromise into the selection of suspension charachteristics, which are best determined by considerations of roadholding and comfort. "
sorry, - to much english for me. :oops:

Sam, it is your bike.
do it and let us know what is going about this point!

beat :mrgreen:

BTW,
the floating caliper we used on place by one piston caliper brakes. the bearing was a type of a " tonnenlager " so the caliper could adjust itself to the disk.

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Re: Hybrid

Post by HPbyStan » Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:17 am

Floating caliper worked well flattracking.

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