Crankshaft experiment
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- Jack Gifford
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
Chances aren't good that the lakester will be ready then, but there's a good chance I'll see you there.
"Motley" bike history: Horex 400, 1940 HD 45 FH, HD Baja 100, '49 Indian Scout 440, Victor 441 Roadster, H*nda TL125, Guzzi V50, H*nda FT500, 400-4, NX250
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
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- Jack Gifford
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
Doesn't win any award for collector design.
But hopefully it will allow more test-running in the dry heated garage, while it's wintry outside. The main goal is to get the noxious fumes outside, but perhaps I'll also be able to listen to the engine itself, rather than just the exhaust roar.

But hopefully it will allow more test-running in the dry heated garage, while it's wintry outside. The main goal is to get the noxious fumes outside, but perhaps I'll also be able to listen to the engine itself, rather than just the exhaust roar.
"Motley" bike history: Horex 400, 1940 HD 45 FH, HD Baja 100, '49 Indian Scout 440, Victor 441 Roadster, H*nda TL125, Guzzi V50, H*nda FT500, 400-4, NX250
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
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- Jack Gifford
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
Oh well... it worked a couple of times before self-destructing... 

"Motley" bike history: Horex 400, 1940 HD 45 FH, HD Baja 100, '49 Indian Scout 440, Victor 441 Roadster, H*nda TL125, Guzzi V50, H*nda FT500, 400-4, NX250
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
I am not realy surprised....Jack Gifford wrote: self-destructing..

- Jack Gifford
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
" ... not really surprised."- that it worked awhile; or that it self-destructed?
So now I'm a slave to the weather outside, to continue testing.

So now I'm a slave to the weather outside, to continue testing.

"Motley" bike history: Horex 400, 1940 HD 45 FH, HD Baja 100, '49 Indian Scout 440, Victor 441 Roadster, H*nda TL125, Guzzi V50, H*nda FT500, 400-4, NX250
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
...... it will be self destructing after awhile....
beat

beat
- Jack Gifford
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
Dyno time scheduled- Mar 28th.
"Motley" bike history: Horex 400, 1940 HD 45 FH, HD Baja 100, '49 Indian Scout 440, Victor 441 Roadster, H*nda TL125, Guzzi V50, H*nda FT500, 400-4, NX250
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
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- b50root
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
Lets see a video, Please.Jack Gifford wrote:Dyno time scheduled- Mar 28th.
Rickard
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- Jack Gifford
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
Hey- I'm an old-timer, barely getting comfortable taking still shots with a digital camera, let alone trying to take moving pictures... 
Besides- I'll be a bundle of nerves, wondering if the engine will survive.

Besides- I'll be a bundle of nerves, wondering if the engine will survive.
"Motley" bike history: Horex 400, 1940 HD 45 FH, HD Baja 100, '49 Indian Scout 440, Victor 441 Roadster, H*nda TL125, Guzzi V50, H*nda FT500, 400-4, NX250
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
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- Jack Gifford
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
Awaiting March 28th... so... finding things to do in the shop...
In some free stuff was a pair of 1.250" diameter end mills in perfect condition. But they have an outside taper that I don't recognize (2.15 degree/1.075 degree per side). They do have a straight/on-center .355" bore, so I turned a mandrel to fit, with 1/2" and 9/16" diameters on the other end to fit in a chuck or 9/16" collet of my mill. To use the other one as a short end mill, I needed to grind the outside taper to a straight diameter to fit in a 7//8" collet. But lacking an appropriate machine (such as tool-post grinder on a lathe), what to do? I finally figured how to do it on just my manual mill. Clamped the mandrel in the mill vise, made a wooden "crank handle" to rotate the piece by hand as I made light passes with a grinding wheel. Not having a cup-style wheel complicated matters, as the mandrel had to be angled away from the wheel's mounting to its shaft. Had to make many small passes (.050" steps), advancing the quill an appropriate amount for each step (tangent of the arbor angle times .050"). Success- .875" straight diameter +/- .001".
Then finally, I brazed the mandrel into the other end mill.
In some free stuff was a pair of 1.250" diameter end mills in perfect condition. But they have an outside taper that I don't recognize (2.15 degree/1.075 degree per side). They do have a straight/on-center .355" bore, so I turned a mandrel to fit, with 1/2" and 9/16" diameters on the other end to fit in a chuck or 9/16" collet of my mill. To use the other one as a short end mill, I needed to grind the outside taper to a straight diameter to fit in a 7//8" collet. But lacking an appropriate machine (such as tool-post grinder on a lathe), what to do? I finally figured how to do it on just my manual mill. Clamped the mandrel in the mill vise, made a wooden "crank handle" to rotate the piece by hand as I made light passes with a grinding wheel. Not having a cup-style wheel complicated matters, as the mandrel had to be angled away from the wheel's mounting to its shaft. Had to make many small passes (.050" steps), advancing the quill an appropriate amount for each step (tangent of the arbor angle times .050"). Success- .875" straight diameter +/- .001".

"Motley" bike history: Horex 400, 1940 HD 45 FH, HD Baja 100, '49 Indian Scout 440, Victor 441 Roadster, H*nda TL125, Guzzi V50, H*nda FT500, 400-4, NX250
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
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- Jack Gifford
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
Dyno shop postponed my session. With any luck, will get me in early next week (April 2nd, 3rd, or 4th).
"Motley" bike history: Horex 400, 1940 HD 45 FH, HD Baja 100, '49 Indian Scout 440, Victor 441 Roadster, H*nda TL125, Guzzi V50, H*nda FT500, 400-4, NX250
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
wish you some of it....


- Jack Gifford
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
New date 4/9/18.
"Motley" bike history: Horex 400, 1940 HD 45 FH, HD Baja 100, '49 Indian Scout 440, Victor 441 Roadster, H*nda TL125, Guzzi V50, H*nda FT500, 400-4, NX250
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
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- minetymenace
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
The fourm language is English.
There is no evidence to support the notion that life is serious.
Abyssinian Wire-Haired Tripehounds Gnash.
Abyssinian Wire-Haired Tripehounds Gnash.
Re: Crankshaft experiment
you need a spell checkminetymenace wrote:The fourm language is English.

Regards AJ CCM
- minetymenace
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
Dyslexic "Forum" and date 

There is no evidence to support the notion that life is serious.
Abyssinian Wire-Haired Tripehounds Gnash.
Abyssinian Wire-Haired Tripehounds Gnash.
Re: Crankshaft experiment
I wondered why the wait would be to 4 September 2018. I would be rather pissed.
Note "pissed" can even mean something different around the English speaking world and a spell checker wood never now.
Note "pissed" can even mean something different around the English speaking world and a spell checker wood never now.
- minetymenace
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Re: Crankshaft experiment

There is no evidence to support the notion that life is serious.
Abyssinian Wire-Haired Tripehounds Gnash.
Abyssinian Wire-Haired Tripehounds Gnash.
- Jack Gifford
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
I had no idea I was posting in a fourm.
[Is that spelling of 'weird' your idea of proper English?]

"Motley" bike history: Horex 400, 1940 HD 45 FH, HD Baja 100, '49 Indian Scout 440, Victor 441 Roadster, H*nda TL125, Guzzi V50, H*nda FT500, 400-4, NX250
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
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- minetymenace
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
In my defence:
1. Look at the time I posted.
2. Its not my fault, I was un-supervised.
It seem I will have to wait until I am crowned galactic president, no, lets make that King, before I will be able to get you unruly colonials back in line!
PS I always assumed that "Werd" was Swedish, or at the very least, some strange Scanian dialect.
1. Look at the time I posted.
2. Its not my fault, I was un-supervised.
It seem I will have to wait until I am crowned galactic president, no, lets make that King, before I will be able to get you unruly colonials back in line!


PS I always assumed that "Werd" was Swedish, or at the very least, some strange Scanian dialect.
There is no evidence to support the notion that life is serious.
Abyssinian Wire-Haired Tripehounds Gnash.
Abyssinian Wire-Haired Tripehounds Gnash.
Re: Crankshaft experiment
Hmmmm ??Jack Gifford wrote:New date 4/9/18.
Waiting such long for the woman you love, - yes, - maybe. ( because you can not make one yourself )
Waiting for a Dino test such long, - NO.
Jack, start to make a Dino by your own, out of a Pontiac ore Buick Hydraulik Gearbox.
More entertayning than waiting ....
beat

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Re: Crankshaft experiment
beat, 04/09/18 is American for 09/04/18, ie next week! (Well I assume it is, hence all the banter).
There is no evidence to support the notion that life is serious.
Abyssinian Wire-Haired Tripehounds Gnash.
Abyssinian Wire-Haired Tripehounds Gnash.
Re: Crankshaft experiment
04/09/18---09/04/18




- Jack Gifford
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
We colonists hate to waste words...
"April 9th"
vs
"the 9th of April"
"April 9th"
vs
"the 9th of April"
"Motley" bike history: Horex 400, 1940 HD 45 FH, HD Baja 100, '49 Indian Scout 440, Victor 441 Roadster, H*nda TL125, Guzzi V50, H*nda FT500, 400-4, NX250
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
Re: Crankshaft experiment
Sorry Jack,
we say 9th April
"the 9th of April" must be old colonial English.
Ignoring the banter - you ready for the Dyno (take 2)? Do you need to build a wall between the engine and attendants this time. We wait with bated breath.
we say 9th April
"the 9th of April" must be old colonial English.
Ignoring the banter - you ready for the Dyno (take 2)? Do you need to build a wall between the engine and attendants this time. We wait with bated breath.
- Jack Gifford
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
The dyno "chamber" has substantial walls and a separate control room.
With my 182 c.i. engine, I guess I'm a "small fish in the sea"- my session keeps getting postponed until they finish with the 3,000 HP turbo-diesel that's presently on their dyno- tractor pulling season will be starting soon.
With my 182 c.i. engine, I guess I'm a "small fish in the sea"- my session keeps getting postponed until they finish with the 3,000 HP turbo-diesel that's presently on their dyno- tractor pulling season will be starting soon.
"Motley" bike history: Horex 400, 1940 HD 45 FH, HD Baja 100, '49 Indian Scout 440, Victor 441 Roadster, H*nda TL125, Guzzi V50, H*nda FT500, 400-4, NX250
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
Re: Crankshaft experiment
what about that great american film "born on the fourth of July" they got the numbers the right way round, and no one noticed !
stew
stew
- Jack Gifford
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
Dyno session last week was... very tedious and stressful. I had never dyno'd an engine before (actually I never built a 4-cylinder race engine before); the shop had never run such a small engine; the mounting and driveline hardware that I had prepared beforehand needed rework (they changed to a different dyno "cart" than the one I had measured); dyno computer and my crank sensor weren't "on the same page"; zoomies had to be modified to connect to the cell''s vent duct; etc.; etc.; On the first startup in the dyno cell I forgot hearing protection and was literally deaf for the next 24 hours. Adding to the stress was the hour and a half commuting to the shop each of four days, plus the cost of $85/hour/man, usually two guys working with me.
Positives: engine is still in one "lump"; dyno data for pressures (bottom end oil, top end oil, fuel) and coolant temperature were fine.
Negatives: first attempted full-throttle "sweep" (3,000-7,000 RPM, 600 RPM/sec) ended abruptly (2.256 sec, 4,786 RPM) with a bang (but not severe enough to blow the burst panel).
Manifold pressure data clearly identifies the culprit. My guess at blower drive ratio (80% of crank speed) was totally "out of the park". This billet 14-71 is WAY more efficient than I knew. I was shooting for around 30 PSI at 9,000 RPM; data log shows more than 25 PSI at 4,000!
With a fixed fuel curve, mixture was going way lean.
A quick check showed two cylinders low on compression, so it's back home to pull the head and hoping the damage is repairable.
Positives: engine is still in one "lump"; dyno data for pressures (bottom end oil, top end oil, fuel) and coolant temperature were fine.
Negatives: first attempted full-throttle "sweep" (3,000-7,000 RPM, 600 RPM/sec) ended abruptly (2.256 sec, 4,786 RPM) with a bang (but not severe enough to blow the burst panel).
Manifold pressure data clearly identifies the culprit. My guess at blower drive ratio (80% of crank speed) was totally "out of the park". This billet 14-71 is WAY more efficient than I knew. I was shooting for around 30 PSI at 9,000 RPM; data log shows more than 25 PSI at 4,000!

A quick check showed two cylinders low on compression, so it's back home to pull the head and hoping the damage is repairable.
"Motley" bike history: Horex 400, 1940 HD 45 FH, HD Baja 100, '49 Indian Scout 440, Victor 441 Roadster, H*nda TL125, Guzzi V50, H*nda FT500, 400-4, NX250
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
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- b50root
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
This is soo intresting. Thanks for sharing.
Rickard
Rickard
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
jack, if the blower was running at 80% of crank speed, it would have a bigger pulley than the crank. in the picture the crank pulley is bigger ?
Re: Crankshaft experiment
HmmmmmJack Gifford wrote: mixture was going way lean.









- Jack Gifford
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
stew- yes, in pictures from a year ago, it had the blower overdriven. But then in my ultimate wisdom, I decided to be on the safe side (ha ha) and swapped the pulleys.
beat- the fuel system is old-school constant-flow mechanical injection. The air/fuel ratio (at least at full-throttle/full-load) is based on the simple premise that the camshaft-driven fuel pump's output will be (roughly) proportional to engine speed, as will air flow. Nominal fuel rate is adjusted by changing an orifice (pill) in a bypass circuit back to the tank- but is still nominally proportional to engine speed, regardless of pill size.
Based on prior experience, the engine builder tries to "size" parts (fuel pump, injector nozzles and venturi sizes, cylinder head flow, and supercharger) appropriately to give the desired air/fuel ratio (about 6:1 for methanol), using typical size ranges of bypass pills (~.075"-.120").
The log shows that both air flow and fuel flow were quite linear functions of engine speed (prior to the bang), but air flow was a MUCH steeper slope than I had anticipated. Thus, at about 4,300 RPM the mixture was going rapidly too lean.
beat- the fuel system is old-school constant-flow mechanical injection. The air/fuel ratio (at least at full-throttle/full-load) is based on the simple premise that the camshaft-driven fuel pump's output will be (roughly) proportional to engine speed, as will air flow. Nominal fuel rate is adjusted by changing an orifice (pill) in a bypass circuit back to the tank- but is still nominally proportional to engine speed, regardless of pill size.
Based on prior experience, the engine builder tries to "size" parts (fuel pump, injector nozzles and venturi sizes, cylinder head flow, and supercharger) appropriately to give the desired air/fuel ratio (about 6:1 for methanol), using typical size ranges of bypass pills (~.075"-.120").
The log shows that both air flow and fuel flow were quite linear functions of engine speed (prior to the bang), but air flow was a MUCH steeper slope than I had anticipated. Thus, at about 4,300 RPM the mixture was going rapidly too lean.
"Motley" bike history: Horex 400, 1940 HD 45 FH, HD Baja 100, '49 Indian Scout 440, Victor 441 Roadster, H*nda TL125, Guzzi V50, H*nda FT500, 400-4, NX250
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
Re: Crankshaft experiment
sorry jack, but for such experiments A/F Ratio should be monitored continually .
the change in A/F ratio is much more quickly as expected and parts are so expensive......
the experience you will made with a A/F reading system you can always taking with you to a next engine.
beat
the change in A/F ratio is much more quickly as expected and parts are so expensive......
the experience you will made with a A/F reading system you can always taking with you to a next engine.
beat

- Jack Gifford
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
I have a wide-band A/F ratio meter that has been invaluable on gasoline engines. But the fact that the dyno shop doesn't have A/F ratio measuring capability makes me think that maybe air/methanol ratio in a race engine might not be easy to measure? I don't really know, but I will try to learn more. Thanks.
"Motley" bike history: Horex 400, 1940 HD 45 FH, HD Baja 100, '49 Indian Scout 440, Victor 441 Roadster, H*nda TL125, Guzzi V50, H*nda FT500, 400-4, NX250
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
Re: Crankshaft experiment
hi Jack,
I will have my nose in to the methanol metering as well.
no experiance from my side at the moment.
but maybe some statements of others ?

I will have my nose in to the methanol metering as well.
no experiance from my side at the moment.
but maybe some statements of others ?

Re: Crankshaft experiment
jack, i like the simple mechanical approach to the fueling, but surely as speed increases, valve timing efficiency etc gets better ? (moving more air) shouldn't the throttle link to the fuel valve be made to give a non linear opening ? (progressively opening faster for more fuel, and automatically not going too rich at half throttle)
stew
stew
- Jack Gifford
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
stew- you're absolutely correct, that barrel valves are typically not linear. They are the subject of much development, but only if part-throttle operation is of importance, In may case, only full-throttle and somewhat-of-an-idle are important. Initially (and perhaps always) I'll run pavement LSR (1 and 1 1/2 mile), where I doubt that full-throttle will break the tires loose (very tall gear ratio, no shifting). In any case, I'm using a barrel valve shape that I know will allow a bit of slacking off from full-throttle if necessary.
"Motley" bike history: Horex 400, 1940 HD 45 FH, HD Baja 100, '49 Indian Scout 440, Victor 441 Roadster, H*nda TL125, Guzzi V50, H*nda FT500, 400-4, NX250
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
Re: Crankshaft experiment
jack, i meant the link between the throttle and the fuel valve, to try and compensate for the non linear rise in fuel requirement. the more i think about this the more i am intrigued. or do you need a fuel pump that can pump proportionally more fuel the higher it revolves ? like some thing from jet engine?
or a separate injector for speeds from 4000 rpm upwards?
stew
or a separate injector for speeds from 4000 rpm upwards?
stew
- Jack Gifford
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Re: Crankshaft experiment
In this earlier post, I tried to describe the principle of constant-flow injection.Jack Gifford wrote: ... old-school constant-flow mechanical injection. The air/fuel ratio (at least at full-throttle/full-load) is based on the simple premise that the camshaft-driven fuel pump's output will be (roughly) proportional to engine speed, as will air flow...
"Motley" bike history: Horex 400, 1940 HD 45 FH, HD Baja 100, '49 Indian Scout 440, Victor 441 Roadster, H*nda TL125, Guzzi V50, H*nda FT500, 400-4, NX250
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs