It sparks by CDI

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by minetymenace » Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:15 pm

stew79 wrote: is there a reason why the spark polarity is reversed ?
beat, being Swiss, is using actual electron flow rather than conventional current, this is a function of all Swiss (Swiss/German) oscilloscopes and can be resolved by members of the wider world by turning the 'scope or 'puter up-side-down, although this makes the writing a little tricky to read. >44
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:16 pm

:lol: :lol:

it was a single spark reading.
and it is upside down because the scope was set wrongly. :oops:

( easy for me to read it " right " by just doing a handstand....)

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by stew79 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:57 am

hi beat, i have not had much luck with my resent cdi project for a v12 jag engine. it seems the "push" only oscillator is fine for singles and twins, but has an upper limit of out put thats not quite enough. a "push pull" oscillator, based on a delta mk 10 cdi (actually something from "car world" that s very good !) is the starting point. from more research it is possible to add an additional cap of 0.08uf in the ac feed to prevent the oscillator from stalling at every firing. (like the mk 10 c) this saves the time that would be taken for the oscillator to re start, so at higher speeds there is still time to charge the main cap. i want to use tip36c,s for the main transistors, so will need to tweak the base resistor values for max efficiency. (rheostats, scope and the test rig) if your new hv power supply (a push pull ?) dosent like being shorted out when it fires, you could try adding a similar small cap before the rectifier to keep it constantly running. :thumb
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:33 pm

hi stew,
stew79 wrote:it seems the "push" only oscillator is fine for singles and twins, but has an upper limit
yes stew, as everything: there is a limit.
but how can you know before you have tried it ?
it needs a test bench ore the running engine, and then you will know.

to keep the booster constantly running is one of the tricks I guess it helps, to have a small " store " of capacity to be charged of the booster AND alternating the charge of the fire capacitor is a other I think.

up to wich frequency ( rpm ) this cheap 6 $ booster will do it, I don't know yet.
at the moment I am on to mod the layout for continues boost run, - a last more difficult but time saving process would be to charge the fire capacitor not triggered by the points cam, no, doing it by a R-C link delaying charging just by let say one millisecond after spark occurring.

but now, I will se first how it gos as this:
DSCN3339.jpg
CDI 0.2 with some first mods
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by stew79 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:11 pm

hi beat, are you using the points to trigger when the oscillator starts running ? as well a when to fire the cap? the oscillator should be running all the time.
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:32 pm

no, the main switch will start the oscillator and the loading the first great capacity, same as loading the fire cap IFF THE POINTS ARE IN CLOSED POSITION !


the points are just deciding when fire the second cap - AND whilst this, - it dos disconnect the second cap from the oscillator and its great capacity.

as I have to wait for a batch of my beloved MJH10012 Transistors, ( T2 and T3 ), - soon I will try to explain how this layout should work.

just today I received two other type of oscillators bought in the net:
DSCN3341.jpg
each costs less then 15 $
the four smaller ones have each a output of 20 Watt, - should actualy be enough for the single engine cdi.
the bigger one has a 70 Watt output, should be enough to kill a Elefant. but not sure it is faster :oops:

soon I will try how fast they are able to fill ( load ) the fire capacitor....

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by minetymenace » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:38 pm

beat, don't forget Ic=dv/dt....so when you try to charge the cap, you will get some serious current through the switching transistor (and D1).
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by stew79 » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:46 pm

hi beat, i looked up them transistors (mjh10012) they are darlingtons for switching in a "kettering" style ignition (better not say "mdi") there could be a reason why no one else has ever used them in a cdi ignition ?
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:32 pm

minetymenace wrote:don't forget Ic=dv/dt....so when you try to charge the cap, you will get some serious current through the switching transistor (and D1).
yes ninety, a serious amount of Amps will flow, but as R ( resistance ) is deciding T ( time ), who can say what R is in the Line of C to E on the MJH10012 ?
maybe it needs a switch that can handling much more Amps in this Peack time then the MJH10012 with the 15 Amps within 5 ms.
dos someone know some thyristors in CDI's and there Amps ??

yes stew,, I do prefer the Darlingtons.
BTW they need much less current to make them switching.
stew79 wrote: there could be a reason why no one else has ever used them in a cdi ignition ?
I guess the reason for this is as in all cdi's there was a surch of a high Voltage at the spark plug. ( 40 000 V ore more )
but as I said: 15 000 V is the max I am after.
but yes, it may blow the MJH10012 in a spark ore two, I will date you up if so..... :roll:

beat

BTW,
DSCN3342.jpg
a more proper picture...
will explain how it should work a next day....

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by stew79 » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:07 pm

hi beat, there are lots of suitable thyristors to use. i like tic106m,s but they are getting hard to find (obsolete) bt151 or bt152, 2n4444 are ok for some systems but require more trigger current. ts820-600t is my present best choice as it can be triggered from a lucus rita magnetic pickup. (with selective assembly they can reliably give you automatic adv / ret)
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by minetymenace » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:08 pm

You need a resistor on the base of T3 beat
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:39 pm

minetymenace wrote:You need a resistor on the base of T3 beat
you are right ninety, - moron me have vergotten it.
it is on the previous layout, here I have missed it!

<021

BTW

thyristor for Ignition: BT151-600

ON current : 7.6 Amps
ON 180° 12 Amps
1/2 Sinus wave 60 Hz: 120 Amps

Total Power: 5 Watt

shure, my MJH 10012 is NOT this strong in short peaks, but my plan is to wind the Transformator in a manner to get the " right" resistance R from the primary windings to cut the peak to something acceptable.
for a starting: 40/ 400 turns.
now what a R is resulting at the 40 ? ( wire thickness about: 0.4 mm )
beat :?:

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by Mark Cook » Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:47 am

Stew, the first viable CDI units ran a pair of Darlington's in a push/pull configuration using a big toroidal transformer. Cross talk on the plug leads was a serious problem.

Fred solved the V12 problem by running 6 split secondary 12 volt Interspans.
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by stew79 » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:25 am

hi mark, in beats sketch it looks like a darlington is going to act as the firing "switch" ? (still in the wrong place though) i no they are used in some oscillators though. as for the v12 project, i didnt no that fred has already been there. another option is 2 delta mk 10 style cdis (in one common box) running 6 plugs each through 2 separate coils. the dizzy could have two lucas style pickups (mopar items from chrysler in "car world") at 180 deg with a 6 pointed donor in the middle. the hard bit is a 2 stack distributor on top ? something for the long winter evenings to sort out. <213
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by stew79 » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:52 pm

been thinking, 12 cylinders, 2 coils, 2 pickups, 1 trigger wheel. the 2 triggers would have to be 150 deg apart. (or 210 deg)
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:22 pm

DSCN3347.jpg
latest version......
beat wrote:will explain how it should work
at first: it is to read from top to dawn and from left to the right.

we can divide it in three parts:

1. - the boost, R1 and C1

2. - the Volt regulators, the Transistors, the points and R3, R4, R5, R6, R7.

3. - R2, D1, C2 and the transformer.

part 1:
the booster makes 380 Volts out of a incoming voltage of 8 to 16 volt. this up to 20 Watt power.
R 1 is a high value Resistor, making a small current running to ground , consuming about 1/4 watt power to make the boost feeling it needs running continuously.
continuously running is making the C1 filling ( charging ) regardless points are open ore closed.

part 2 :
the three transistors. as to see, T1 and T3 are on the same supply, wich is VR2. and the points are on VR2 as well.
now, when points are closed, they "steel away " all the current of the bases of T1 and T3, so no current is going trough the C- E line of T1 and T3.
as T1 is actually THE THIEF of the Base current for T2, T2 is in fallow doing always the opposite as T1 ( and T3 ) is doing !
in result: when T3 is closing, - T2 is opening, they are always in reverse to each other AND in reverse to what the points are doing !
the two VR's are there to supply the bases of the transis, safely with the same voltage regardless the onboard voltage is doing variate in between 6 volts minimum ore 16 volts maximum.
two VR's because I like to minimize the current for the points to a value of around 400 mA wich will be around this with the two transistores.

part 3 :
R2, D1, C2 and the Transformator ( coil )
R2 is a pulldown to make sure after the discharge of C2 this line is really at zero volts, otherwise the T2 will not be able properly switched again.
D1 is the one way valve ( diode) making sure the pulldown R2 isn't able to suck any energy out of C2.
C2 is the capacity wich is able to make the spark.

All the other R's are there to reduce voltage ( current ) to the Base of the transis, R7 is a pulldown for the T2 for save and fast switching.

that is it, - not sure it will work, - but I give it a go as soon as I have all the components on my table....

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by stew79 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:15 pm

hi beat, i still dont completely get your diagram, but the boffin of oz (hugo holden) has done lots of work on cdi car ignition triggered by the original points. if i was clever i could give you a link to one of his papers where he compares mdi with cdi (in a triumph car) its really worth reading as he explanes things very well and compares the spark energy between the 2 (cdi wins !!!!!)
stew
try http://tr4a.weebly.com/uploads/2/1/9/8/ ... ition..pdf

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by minetymenace » Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:13 am

While I haven't read all of "the boffin of oz" paper, I think his calculations seen a little off (eg 60H inductance for a coil secondary, I would guess that 10H would be more like it), similarly his italic paragraph about the importance of resonance between the primary coil and the condenser over emphasises this particular characteristic.

At the end of the day, beat is not trying to copy someone else's ideas of electronic ignition, he has some very specific requirements and saying you don't understand his way of doing things and there is this guy on the net that has already done it better is not helping beat reach his goal (and if he wants to put a switching device in a particular position, saying no one else does it like that doesn't make beat wrong).

We are here to help and encourage people along their own path not constantly try to force them down another. If you know anything about electronics, lets help him on his way, not someone else's.

(Just want to say this is me being me, not me as a moderator).
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by stew79 » Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:16 am

mr minety, i want beat to succeed with his project and thought this might help. i only understand 20 % of what hugo has written, and in the past we have disagreed on many technical issues, but i think beat has a more academic approach to electronics than me. as for copying someone else,s ideas, thats what we all do ? i copied how a transistor is wired up to base resistors from a book, or how a circuit needs to be complete etc, you cant re-invent that as its already there ?
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by Mark Cook » Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:31 pm

I'm proud to say I'm a member of the Beat fan club. It's impressive that Beat is teaching himself about electronics. More so that he rides his experiments great distances. Better than that, in the few years that have past since our two meetings his English has improved no end.
Sadly I don't think many of us do or could speak Swiss!

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:22 pm

stew79 wrote:hi beat, i still dont completely get your diagram,
hi stew,
this may be not really your fault, probably it is NOT working.... :lol: :lol:
but we will see <216
minetymenace wrote:We are here to help and encourage people along their own path
very wise, - and a good way to NOT re-invent something old, no, it is to combine something new for a particular use.
Mark Cook wrote:Sadly I don't think many of us do or could speak Swiss!
hahaha,

mark, feel happy to NOT speak it !
it's something like Welsh, - and ugly , two valleys further it sounds different again... :lol: :lol:
stew79 wrote: i only understand 20 % of what hugo has written,
as my english is enough for 10% only, I do have some problem with as well...

beat <212 <212 <212

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:49 pm

hi stew,

I was just reading the " Summary " on page 54 and fallowing.

IMO, this guy got it same way as I put my nose in, - I will just extend it a bit in my direction....

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by stew79 » Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:51 am

hi beat, here is a link to some more interesting electronic reading from hugo. even though its mainly "car world" some of it still apply to bikes as well.
http://www.worldphaco.net/
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:45 pm

as I stil wait for the Transistors, they came from utsource.net.
thaking very long it seams, -- dos anyone know this shop ??

beat <201

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