It sparks by CDI

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:53 pm

Michael Gallagher Sr. wrote:at least my living room looks normal,
maybe you missed the picture - ore you cal a very tolerant " Wassel " your own.... :thumb ( what ever a Wassel is :?: :?: )
gauloises wrote: hope to God they know what they're doing.
your word in God`s ears :!: :!:

emf, - = backcoplings as we say I guess.
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by Mark Cook » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:24 pm

To make it easy Beat.

EMF Volts
Back EMF Volts going the wrong way.

I am thinking the whole circuit does look a little too powerfull. To much current in your spark will eat the spark plug.

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:16 pm

hi some,
the circuit of the first part, the producing of the 400 Volts now is this:
DSCN1663.jpg
making 300 to 500 Volts out of 12 V
DSCN1664.jpg
in reality
some words to the circuit : the bug NE555 makes a square sygnal on pin 3
the signal form dependes on the 25K adjusting, - the frequency of the signal is 24 000 Hz, dependes on the two capacitors of 3.3 and 4.3 üF
this signal is stady as long there is a voltage from 5 to 18 volts on pin 4 and 8.
the 18 V Volt Dependent Resistor ( VDR ) in parallel to pin 4 and 8 is to protect overvoltage on this point.

out of pin 3 , the signal pases 100 Ohms and comes to the base of MJH 11022 . the 6800 Ohms provides a save and fast swiching Transistor.
C of the MJH11022 is taking the load of the primary coil of Potcore Transformer T1.
a Resistore of 2.7 Ohms makes shure the Amperes are in any case in the range for the MJH.
a other VDR of 505 Volts protects the intrance C of this 11022 from overvoltage.
QUESTION : should I put a other VDR ( 505 Volt ) directly from C to E ???
and : should I put a other VDR ( 18 Volt ) from B to 0 Volt ???

dos anyone see other faults ore missing protection devices on this circuit :?: :?:

the ( high ) voltage side of T1 gos to the bridge for getting DC, and then over to the second part of the CDI
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:57 pm

hi the others,

the circuit of the second part - the producing of the 20 000 Volts is like this :
DSCN1668.jpg
storing 400 and making 20K to 40K Volt Spark
DSCN1671.jpg
and in reality
some words to this circuit: one side of the 400 is groundet, the other ( + ) is passing a diode to protect from EMF I hope.
then it charges a Capacitor of 2.2 üF.
as I have tested different sizes of Caps, such as 1 üF, 1.5 üF, 2.2 üF, and 4.4 üF ( two 2.2 in parallel..... ) there is a huge difference in spark fatness !!
Systems with 1 üF are buyable around every corner I say, - I would like to have it a bit fatter ! how fat, this will be shown later by mesuring the spark duration. as I said, 10° Crank it should be by any diff revs the B50 gos trou.
after the charge the Cap, it passes the primary coil of the HT Travo T2. a VDR of 895 Volts should cut the peacks from the EMF`s and protect the entrance D of the MOSFET IRF PG 50.
G of the PG 50 is getting the 12 Volts by a Resistor of 100 Ohms and conected to Ground by 6.8K Ohms .a VDR of 85 Volts protects from to high peacks I hope.
the switch to G is now done by hand, - shure, it will be the standard BSA points later on...
Question: should I set a other VDR 895 Volts from D to S ???
and : is maybe the VDR of 85 Volts by G the wrong one ? ( schould it be 18 Volts ?? )
are there others missing ore wrong :?: :?:
please help out there :!: :!: :!:
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by Mark Cook » Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:33 pm

I'm not very good a this bit Beat, my maths is just awfull at the level your playing with. What I do know is that the frequency of your oscillator must match in some way the impedance of the coil you are driving. A bit like a high power radio transmitter attached to an aerial the wrong length. The output circuit can be burnt out with the reflected waves. Very rough rule of thumb, and I'm sure I will be corrected by someone who knows what they are on about. Low frequency has more turns on the coil. High frequency has less turns. If you do manage to get your output transistor to last, you will then find that your HT coil will go short circuit as you burn through the insulation!

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:27 pm

we do speak abouth part one, making the 400 V, - right?
the best frequency for this Potcore we ( me and my son ) have find out as fallow:
setting the cercuit and "making " a LOAD in form of a cooled resistor after the bridge and mesuring the output voltage on DC side.
using the Bug Tyni 13, the programmable one.
programmed 5000 Hz, 10 000, 12 000 and so on, always 2000 more and observing the Voltage.
the highest voltage ( under Load ) we have seen between 19 000 and 24 000 Hz.
something like a courve of a motor, so we guessed as this is abouth the point where
Mark Cook wrote: the frequency of your oscillator must match in some way the impedance of the coil
not shure, this is the corecly way to do something like, but it maygh be explaining it a bit :???: :???:
this MJH 11022, the datasheet says: 250 Volts,15 Amps continous, 30 Amps Peack. - but maybe I do miss something on the Base side.

but hang on, -- I do see now something <013 !
my VDR is 505 Volt, schurely wrong ! SH$£%&/ç :!:
I do miss a vew things I guess......
beat <216 <216 <216

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by Michael Gallagher Sr. » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:07 pm

gauloises wrote:Beat and Minety remind me of learned surgeons standing at the foot of your hospital bed discussing your case in hushed tones. You can't understand a word of it but hope to God they know what they're doing.

Hi, Mike, taking a breather from the POG forum? I didn't think you did 4 strokes.

Gauloises
Hey there Gauloises,
yes i have others, 5 Brit bikes in my stable, 2 Rickmans, 1 Greeves, Wassell/Penton Trials and my 4 stroke B50icon
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by minetymenace » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:53 pm

beat, not surprised you blew up your FET, give me a day or two beat...

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by Bill » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:55 am

Hi Beat this is one of my favourite threads so I hope you get this circuit cracked, it does look like a back emf issue to me as well.

Protecting the active components (transistors and diodes) in a high frequency & high voltage inductive coil circuit is a real nightmare, but it’s usually just some diodes and capacitors to damp and decouple the back emf spikes to ground.

Hopefully Gerry can advise on what’s required but to see a typical back emf voltage for yourself just connect up your oscilloscope across a 12-volt relay coil and operate the relay a few times, you will see a voltage spike of about 300 volts generated when the coils “electro-magnetic-field” (emf) collapses each time the relay is switched off, and that is just from a 12 volt supply.

You are switching much more voltage through your transformer coil so the spikes will be massive, also once the engine is running at high revs then the high switching frequencies used can bring parasitic oscillations into play as well.


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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by minetymenace » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:34 pm

Beat, I would put a diode in parrallel with the primary of T1 (cathode to the supply/resistor). This will then provide a path for the back emf and the current will freewheel through the diode and not drive the voltage up on the FET. also something like a motorola MUR1620 or 60 across the the drain and source of the FET, as a bit more protection. I havn't looked up you fet but fets can be destroyed easily, keep the lege shorted until they are installed in the circuit and keenly observe anti-static precautions.

You can easily isolate the gate from the driver using a small isolation trnsformer.

At a later date it would be worth creating a resonant circuit with a capacitor on the primary side of T1. This would utilise the wasted energy that is blowing up your FET or will flow through the freewheeling diode mentioned above. You will be amazed at the increase in energy if you do this. You could select the value cap by trial and error or if you know the inductance of T1 you could work it out. Varying the frequency is an easy option to see the effect on the circuit.

Why are you rectifying the secondary? The rectifier will halve the peak-peak voltage of the output of T1. To strike the arc, you need a high voltage, once it is struck DC will errode one electrode, AC will help it all wear out together :shock: At the frequency you are working at I doubt that the plasma will dispurse before the voltage builds in the opposite direction, so you don't need to worry about the arc being extinguished twice a cycle.

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by minetymenace » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:03 pm

sorry beat, I didn't read your post properly, you are trying to get 300 or 400vDC to charge the caps....why not just create a high frequency and stick it through a coil? job done. If you want to keep your points (why?) you could use them to stop the oscillator. I know this is a change in phylosophy, but what is the point of charging the caps with energy when you could just squirt that energy straight into the plug, its not like you are lacking power....

now I will have a look at the second stage....

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:42 pm

minetymenace wrote:it would be worth creating a resonant circuit with a capacitor on the primary side of T1.
any idea what sice this cap needs to be about ??
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by minetymenace » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:40 am

For resonance, put a capacitor in parralel with the coil, the equasion is:

f=1/(2π√(LC))

Where:
f is the frequency (24000Hz)
1 is 1
2 is 2
π is 3.1415 etc
√ is square root
L is the inductance of your coil (Henry), what ever that is
C is the capacitance (Farad)

To find the impedance of the coil, measure the current (I) through it when an ac voltage (V) is applied, secondary open circuit, then idealy

V/I=2πfL

This will get you somewhere near, but measuring the open circuit secondary voltage you should be able to adjust the C or F (frequency might be easier) to get maximum volts.

If you get resonance, strange things will happen....if you use your scope to measure, don't forget the leads will have capacitance, but you should be able to tune your tank to have some considerable fire power :shock:

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:57 pm

hi minety,
in replacing the MUR 1620 ore so I have Zener diodes at 150 Volts ad hand.
please look at the circuit, are they in the right direction like this ??
DSCN1675.jpg
circuit just drive the Travo T1 with a IRF 740
2 X 150 Volts should do the 400 Volts / 10 Amps I should not exceed in the primary side driver.
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by minetymenace » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:46 pm

They are OK beat, but it dosn't have to be a zener, just one ordinary diode will do.....

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:46 pm

ok minety, so I will take something other wich is fast enough for this peacks.
as something from the fastest, I can stil set a VDR of let say 200 Volts in there to do the rest I hope
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:47 pm

hi minety,
I came to something other then the freewheel diode on primary coil of T1.
look at this circuit please:
DSCN1684.jpg
18.2.2012
then, the signal on the pin 3 of the 555:
DSCN1676.jpg
the sqare dance by 12.5 Volts on the NE555 outlet...
then the signal on the primary coil: 45 Volts peacks
DSCN1677.jpg
across the O Volt and primary coil outlet to the driver...
and the Voltage after the DC bridge / rectefier:
DSCN1678.jpg
after the bridge...
a DMS across the same points shows 163 Volts DC, the Oszy shows 190 Volts, but I know it will be much higher when the second part , say the capacitor is loadet as well.

I am a bit shy abouth a diode bringing peacks in to the + 12 Volt side of the circuit, maybe it dos not polute the 12 Volt side if there is the MUR 160 in between to the suply as it is newly now ?
maybe it will work a diode set in place of the 200V VDR on T1 ???
a other driver, the IRF 740 is in use now as well.it should cop with 400 Volts and 10 Amps....
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:06 am

hi some...
I guess it is coming nearer...
DSCN1685.jpg
the sqare signal above 5.5 Volt input to 18 Volts max in, out at the same Voltage as in, but by 24000 Hz
DSCN1686.jpg
the around 400 Volts circuit
on the bench, it seams to be stable and by a Amps consumpting of around 0.1 A, there is no smoke and no heat to feel ad al by none of the parts.
the results in Volts are this:
DSCN1687.jpg
different V in = diff V out...
so as next, I will conect the second part, the loading the cap and the firing of it....
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by minetymenace » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:16 pm

VDR is not the component for the job. In my industry they re called "bang resistors". They clamp the voltage by going short circuit, and in doing so they deteriorate, in commercial applications they are fused with a neon across the fuse, the neon indicates the failure of the device, but in your case another fet will be required…best replace the VDR across the coil with a diode beat…

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:17 pm

hi minety,
abouth this capacitor...
as there are flowing abouth 0.2 Amps by 12 Volts, and the peacks are 45 volts, I will try 0.1üF and 0.15 üF by 600 volt isolating ( 111 nF says my son , fallowing your formula ).
see what is coming out on this....
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:22 pm

hi min,
ok, I will replace the VDR by adiode 600 volts and in To 220 housing.
when I have this capacitors, dos it stil need this diode ?

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by minetymenace » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:33 pm

beat, just got back from a work, two 18 hr shifts with six hours rest in between....I havn't read your posts properly and I am very tired, but if you get the whole thing to resonate, the fet will just be tickeling the oscillation and keeping the whole thing going, a bit like taping a weight bouncing on a spring....I'll read it properly tomorrow, after I have done my reports etc..

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:41 pm

hi minety,
as I have seen your newest report now (in of topic )
I would like to ask you something abouth this circuit of the second part now :
DSCN1715.jpg
watch out for the four diodes,
: are they in the right direction - and- are they able to kill the emf`s ??
beat <201
still breeding on it....

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:01 pm

hi al (l),
when the time of the year is coming as it looks like this inside my house:
DSCN0139.jpg
wintertime....
beat wrote:beat
still breeding on it....
yeas, <201 <201 <965 <018 <017 <024 <127
beat <988................................................. <213

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by minetymenace » Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:52 pm

"Brooding" , beat "brooding", it means you are sitting on it like an egg. If you are "breeding" on it, you are having far more fun than is healthy with a few semi-conductors and a length of copper wire (but as I have seen what the Swiss get up to in the mountains, you may well be breeding on it!!).

The diodes are the right way round, D3 (and possibly D1) may be a little unnecessary. Make sure the switching speed of the diode protection is faster that the thing you are trying to protect (the FET).

D4 will act like a free-wheeling diode, ie when the FET switches off, the decay in the coil will be slower as the current will continue to flow through D4. If you leave D4 out di/dt will tend to infinity, with consiquential effects in the secondary.

Just remember that 10 to 40 Joules passing through you can very easily ruin your day. No pokey pokey with the power on!

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:24 pm

hi minety,
breeding ore brooding,- what ever -
my egghead cam to the fallowing solution:
I surch for a fault in the circuit since one year and I can not find it. right ?
Question: are I to stupid to find it ore do I surch at the wrong place ?? :?: :?:
until now, I was fallowing the answer of : I am to stupid !

from now, my EGG says, - I will fallowing the way of : I do surch at the wrong place :!: :!: :!: :!:
so, stoping to protect the MOSFET ore IGBT from EMF`s, - GO TO SURCH ON THE LEFTOVER PLACE ON SUCH A BUG !!!!

as this parts al have a GATE, I started thinking as I may do something wrong at this side !!
and I cam to the point, as I do not GOOD, FAST, CLEAR enough switching the gate !!!!!
I think I need to use a GATE- DRIVER to not burning the Semiconductor ( MOSFET / IGBT ) by the load wich is a bit heavy in my case of the 400 Volts and the 2 ore 4 ore 6 uF. capacitors :!:

so, soon I will place a order by my suplier for some MOSFET DRIVER like : IR 2101 , ore MAX 626 , ore MAX 627 , ore NJM 3548 .
I guess, I need a device wich is switching the Gate in a Time of maximal let say 0.2 Micro Seconds ore so, best would be by 20 Nano seconds I guess....

not shure it will work, but beat is giving this way a try....
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by minetymenace » Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:17 am

Hi beat, the devices you list are dual devices, I think you only need a single sided, also have a care about driving with a TTL or CMOS signal. TTL will require current/power but may be less suseptable to noise, CMOS will use less quiesent power but may be more prone to noise.

Electronic ignitions are very noisy, consider some opto isolation to isolate the controls from the noisy power side of things....how fast are you switching? do you have a signal generator?

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:36 pm

hi minety,
yes, I have seen as the devices are most dual, so I think I will swich them in parallel for stronger output.
minetymenace wrote:.how fast are you switching? do you have a signal generator?
as the part I am now on to build is the " firing the capacitor " to do the spark, the signal generator is the B50 engine itself, say the points.
so, 500 / minute to let say 5000 / minute is the speed I will operate it at least on the testbench :mrgreen:
my favorite device is the NJM 3548. it seams to me as it is a stronger, simplier built thing but with the downside of having 200 nanoseconds risetime.
it says, it is used in ECUs for fuel injections on cars etc.
maybe I have to go in two steps, using first one of the MAX 626 ore 627 to invert the "opening signal " from the points, and then the NJM 3548 to drive the IGBT ore MOSFET.
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by minetymenace » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:08 am

I was hoping to have a think about this, but suddenly have my hands full. Sorry I was being a half-whit asking about the frequency, of course you want to keep the points ( :laugh ).

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:41 pm

hi minety,
as others saying: " it is pointless to speack about points ",
yes, I keep on them....
but, can you have a look at my newest Baby please ?
DSCN0172.jpg
wiring diagram with driver for the powerswich
can you see already some rough faults :?: :?:
beat :roll:

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by minetymenace » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:45 pm

What is the number on the FET?
Zeners look like they are the wrong way around. How does the 500v capacitor (fed with 400v) discharge (am I missing something here)?

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:58 pm

hi minety,
the FET is : IRFBE30.........( 800 V, 4.1 A )
the zeners ( 200 V each ) my be wrong, yes, I will check this :oops:
the sense of them is to let the EMFs strait to GRD if higher then 600 V

the capacitor 2.2uF / 800 V gets loadet by the 300 to 400 volts and then the discharging of it will be switched ( hopefully ) by the IRFBE 30.
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:57 pm

hi all,
DSCN0229.jpg
at least I have a table with the stuff on in my livingroom
breeding over this thing, - can not get it going ! <218
DSCN0231.jpg
the new diagramm with a MAX 627 Driver
<215 <215 <215
beat <946 <946

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minetymenace
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by minetymenace » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:07 am

Instead of all those caps, put a high value current limiting resistor in their place. You should be able to see if the fet is switching. (The caps should be in parrallel with the HV supply, not in series)

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:42 pm

hi all,
no, no - I was not lazy the last weeks after finished the Alutank.
about a half docent more circuits I have been droing:
DSCN0376.jpg
different layouts designet and tested
and then, the last one to see here:
DSCN0378.jpg
I GET IT !!!!!!!
GENTLEMANS; - IT SPARKS BY CDI :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:

shure, the workbench in the livingroom looks like a mess, -
DSCN0374.jpg
the Mess is working !
but each of this cables and parts makes sens and the result is :
it sparks by single shots as well by 10 Hz = 1200 rpm and by 75 Hz= 9000 rpm
and as far as I can see now, it is running for a cuple of minutes witouth burning something ore doing any unexpected sparks ore smokes somewhere else then at the spark plug :!:

shure, it is not all as I like it:
- the Voltage to charge the Caps is 250 V only
- the Transystore IRF 740 , driving the Potcore transformer is getting to warm
and the MC 78 , suplying the 5 Volts is getting hot two, so they need cooling plates with finns.
and I guess, some others will show up as well.
but IT WORKS, and beat has one of the happyest hobby-days in hes live....
<928 <928 <928 <928

wich dos not say as my wive is happy with this part of the livingroom....
DSCN0369.jpg
replaced the Christmas Tree by the CDI....
:oops: :oops: :oops:

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by Mark Cook » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:16 pm

Well done Beat. Very pleased for you. :ban

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by besaboy » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:47 pm

Beat, the only question I have, have read all these posts is - will it make the bike run, easy starting and come in a small box which is cheaper than Interspan, which does all those things ? <201

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by beat » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:08 pm

thanks mark,
- and it is easy to answer the only Question:

NO

the reason why I try to build my own CDI is a other one: I can not getting it somewhere else.
because I do look for the fallowing system:
1. - : I will keep the ATU and the POINTS.
2. - : I will a system which runs on MINUS to Ground and PLUS in Wires.
3. - : I will a system which makes a sparkduration of abouth half the time the standard Inductive system dos. ( at least )
4. - : I will see a circuit layout of the system with all the electronical Parts used in it, and the Names ( Numbres ) ore Values noted by ! ----( NO BLACK BOX )
and 5. - : I like to learn something, still in my high age I am a " Wonder Nose " :mrgreen:

wishes you a nice day,
beat :laugh

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by skippy » Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:08 pm

Good on you, it's so satisfying building something yourself.
You could have used someone elses circuit from the internet but there's no satisfaction in that.
Can't wait to see how it works on the bike. <1010
There will be plenty of air to cool the unit if you fit it out front. :thumb
doug

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Post by Ian Hingley » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:12 am

Well done beat!

No smoke or fire? Where's the fun in that?

:thumb <935 <122 <122

Ian

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