B44 Flat Track Build

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B44 Flat Track Build

Post by astrorick » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:34 am

First time visit to this very cool website.

I’ve owned a copy of ’56 Gold Stars back in the day (when they were cheap) and now race vintage two-stroke short track.
I’m looking to move into brakeless class and would like to build a 1966 or 1967 BSA B44 Victor.

I’ve spent several hours looking at what others have done and really like Stan Millard’s B50. However, I need to keep the bike within the prescribed period (1967 or older).

My initial questions regard the frame and engine. I really need to get the weight down (to around 200-225 lbs.) and power up over 40 hp, if possible (duh) to compete with Sprints and El Banditos.

Frame: I don’t want a Sonic Weld frame. What options do I have? C-16 or B25? Rickman looks possible.
I'm under the impression that all square barrels are the same. Is that true? Were there square barrels in 1966 or 1967?
E&V Engineering and Stan’s “build list” are already on my reference list.

Other tips/advice are appreciated. Thanks.

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Re: B44 Flat Track Build

Post by matt49g » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:18 pm

Where are you located and what organization/series would you be racing in? In AMA district 16, Wisconsin/Upper Michigan, the cc limit is 250-400cc for the brakeless class. Even if it were eligible for your district, I don't think a B44 would be the way to go, especially the round barrel. Stan will most likely chime in how he used to beat my brothers Sifton equipped B44 with his stock B25. I raced a round barrel B44 on TT scrambles tracks very successfully in the late '60s', but when I tried it on a couple of 1/2 miles I would be lucky if I made it past time trials, ( I would regularly place in the mains on my Gold Star).
The round barrel('66-67) and square barrel('68-70) are not identical, the round barrel would not be a good starting platform due to too many subtle changes in the later models, way too many to list here. Read the rules for your region closely, most organizations require only that the model be made in the cut-off year, not the particular bike.
Chassis choice depends on what's available, how much you want to spend and what your fabricating skills are. Several guys around here use Sonic weld on their b25's, but it's a major PIA to fit a decent carb and aircleaner. Also it's a major hassle to get chain clearance/alignment when a 27.0X7.0X19 dirt track tire is mounted. Stan either makes his frames from scratch or uses modified BSA frames. I'm currently using a modified B25 frame with one of Stanley's swing arms and a H*nda front end that seems to handle very well and I'm quite comfortable on, but it's probably heavier than you want.
I hope I answered a couple of your questions, if you want to hear more of my ramblings about what I've learned in the past two years trying to build a 350, pm me and I'll give you my email address and phone number.
Matt McNall 49g
BSA 250
BSA 350

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Re: B44 Flat Track Build

Post by b50root » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:45 pm

matt49g wrote: Stan will most likely chime in how he used to beat my brothers Sifton equipped B44 with his stock B25.
:laugh :laugh :laugh But thats a HPbyStan B25!!

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Re: B44 Flat Track Build

Post by astrorick » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:49 pm

Racing at So Cal Flat Track (SCFTA) as well as San Bernardino and Victorville. Open brakeless class is 500-750cc, 1967 and older. New track is 1/4 mile cushion. Several locals believe a 441 would be very competitive with some frame and engine mods. Leaning towards a Rickman Mk IV frame if I get enough thumbs up. Thanks for the insight. Still doing my homework.

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Re: B44 Flat Track Build

Post by colorado » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:03 am

astrorick wrote: Open brakeless class is 500-750cc, 1967 and older. New track is 1/4 mile cushion.
interesting!

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Re: B44 Flat Track Build

Post by steve m » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:38 am

b50root wrote:
matt49g wrote: Stan will most likely chime in how he used to beat my brothers Sifton equipped B44 with his stock B25.
:laugh :laugh :laugh But thats a HPbyStan B25!!
Matt,
i am surprised to hear that Stan actually had a "stock" anything. :shock: :shock: :lol:

steve

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Re: B44 Flat Track Build

Post by astrorick » Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:42 am

Some of the comments got me thinking. I did some homework and talked with Ed at E&V a little bit today.

Rules: AHRMA Classic 500/750cc class (1967 and older)

Ed's comments: B44R will do okay for 1/4 mile short-track (nothing longer). Need to de-rake the neck to 26 degrees and lengthen the swing arm 2". Improve swing arm with needle or bronze bearings. Change rod to Carrillo, port, and a few other things. Avoid boring (?), not strong enough. Breathing is a problem with these engines.

I'm still struggling with getting the weight down and hp up.

Frame suggestions?

Didn't these get a Weslake 500cc kit back in the day?

Thanks.

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Re: B44 Flat Track Build

Post by astrorick » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:03 pm

Well, it's been almost five years since these posts. But, progress has been very slowly made on my 1967 BSA B44R flat track build. Ed at E&V built the B44R engine to top specs without making it a 3-lap pony (and I have the invoice to prove it and now know how to spell titanium correctly).

The TR25W frame has been de-raked, aligned, rear wheel assembly re-aligned to properly track and a box frame Champion swingarm hooked up. I had a custom off-set triple clamp made to fit the Cerianis. The carb and oil tank fit was an absolute nightmare! Ed did the best he could without having the frame to work with and we came very close. But, to fit the new Mikuni carb and air filter under the seat and between the double downtubes without closing-off the float bowl over-flow we had to shorten and re-angle the carb manifold a little bit.

In 2015, I retired and moved to Peru to head-up a nonprofit organization working with Amazon tribes on economic development projects. So, progress gets made when I come back to the USA a couple times a year. I'm coming back in July 2017 for a couple of weeks and hope to get everything loose-fitted before it goes in for powder coating. Right now I'm looking for a billet rocker oil line feed pipe manifold (like SRM or Webco style) but, they don't seem to make them anymore for the B44s. If you know where I can get one, please let me know.

Matt49g and most everyone was spot-on with the hassles I'd have. Hopefully the worst is behind me. I'll try and send some photos when I get a chance.
Blessings,
Rick
086(2).JPG
087 (2).JPG
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Last edited by astrorick on Wed May 10, 2017 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2007 H-D FLHXI Street Glide, 1974 Bultaco Astro 360, 1967 BSA B44R Roadster, 2010 H*nda 400 NX4 Falcon.

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Re: B44 Flat Track Build

Post by koncretekid » Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:56 am

Rick,
Is this what you're looking for? http://b50.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5285?

I still have a few left. P.M. me with an address and I can send you one.

Tom
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Re: B44 Flat Track Build

Post by astrorick » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:41 pm

I'm still messin' with the carb/oil tank configuration in the frame carriage area to no avail. The alloy oil tank I have just isn't going to work in its current form. I'm considering modifying my TR25W frame and fabricating an OIF (Trackmaster-type OIF). I've seen other OIF posts, but no retrofitting a TR25W frame for OIF. Maybe a smaller oil tank, oil cooler, etc? Bad idea? Thoughts?
Also considering a one-piece custom rear slab fender/oil tank combo. Another nutty idea?
I just need more space in triangle carriage area of the frame.
Thanks.
Rick
2007 H-D FLHXI Street Glide, 1974 Bultaco Astro 360, 1967 BSA B44R Roadster, 2010 H*nda 400 NX4 Falcon.

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Re: B44 Flat Track Build

Post by minetymenace » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:06 pm

astrorick, your project is taking as long as mine! How about some pictures?
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Re: B44 Flat Track Build

Post by koncretekid » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:13 am

Oil tanks can be a problem. On my TR25 land speed bike, I used a vertical 1 litre aluminum tank sold as an oil/air separator or some other use, I'm not sure, and I hose clamped it to the rear down tube that connects the rear shock support to the main lower frame which gave me room for an extended intake as well as a velocity stack. But, I only have to run for 3 miles at a time, so one litre is OK.

Stan used a standard oil tank, but sectioned it to make it thinner. OIF is the ultimate solution, but then you need a fuel tank that will clear that larger tube, as for the B50. The BSA OIF frame is good with stronger swing arm and rear axle support, but there is even less room for your carb. Most B50 race bikes added a B44 bumped out type down tube in place of the stock one to accommodate space for the carb.

I would be leery of combining rear fender and oil tank, as there is just too much vibration to deal with; better to separate these two functions.

I do not have any flat track experience, but I would have liked to! Probably should have started that a bit sooner in life.

Tom

P.S. If you haven't found a rocker oil manifold, I sold all my stock to BSA Unit Singles - see link at top of this page.
life's uncertain - go fast now

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Re: B44 Flat Track Build

Post by matt49g » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:34 am

I have converted a '68 B25 frame to OIF. I also have a very good "If I did it over" idea. If I can figure how to post pictures here I will, otherwise I'll ask for your phone number and text them to you, much faster that way.

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Re: B44 Flat Track Build

Post by matt49g » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:37 am

Where did you get the head bolt (stud) nuts?

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Re: B44 Flat Track Build

Post by HPbyStan » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:10 pm

Got a photo as far as my FB timeline page but my @#$%^&* computer won't let me post it here.

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Re: B44 Flat Track Build

Post by WeirdTim » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:13 pm

Posting this for Stan Millard:

Image

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Re: B44 Flat Track Build

Post by koncretekid » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:10 am

Great idea! Is this a new build for Stan? B50 motor?
Tom
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Re: B44 Flat Track Build

Post by HPbyStan » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:49 am

The finished bike is now owned by "Weird Tim" on this forum. A nice photo is on the FB B25 page right under the pic of my slightly modified B25 engine but do you suppose I can get it from there to here ? <1011

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Re: B44 Flat Track Build

Post by Calkins » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:39 am

This one?

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Re: B44 Flat Track Build

Post by HPbyStan » Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:26 am

Yes, Thank you !! Like new '67 B50 ;-) <1011

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