Converting a B50 to wet sump. (aka Boris Johnson)

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Momus
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

Image

I managed to get a bit done on the frame and wet sump over Easter. Frame is German chrome moly-4130 TIG welded with mild steel filler rod.
2" back bone, 1.75" down tube 1.125' cradle.

You can see the mocked up wooden sump below the engine.

No idea on the maximum stroke on a B50 Beat.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by twinshocker »

Momus wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:17 am I'm making a new frame along the lines of a Clews Stroka.

I want it small and low.
My opinion:
No matter how tricky your additional oil reservoir under the engine is shaped there will be no smaller and lower design as OIF !
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

twinshocker wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:46 pm
Momus wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:17 am I'm making a new frame along the lines of a Clews Stroka.

I want it small and low.
My opinion:
No matter how tricky your additional oil reservoir under the engine is shaped there will be no smaller and lower design as OIF !
Granted that the sump, which IS the oil reservoir uncontroversially increases the depth of the engine.

However the aim of the exercise is to simplify and lighten the bike, clean up the engine's unpleasant hoses-fittings-tubes everywhere look and keep oil in the engine while stopping oil flooding, lower the cog and eliminate every original Beezer made internal part. 👍🏋️
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by minetymenace »

OK, it seems clear that Momus is embarking on this barking project and the one or two of us that think it is insane have expressed our doubts. Like some lunatic professor, Momus is going to ignore the ne'r saying swell of opinion and plough on regardless....

So:
Momus, please learn how to post pictures on the forum and start a topic in Project Bikes.
Everyone else, use you specialist knowledge to help Momus make this a success.

However crazy you think this might be, it is certainly going to be interesting, on a par with beat's oil mods, Stan's head modifications and that precisely cut piece of wood that goes under the side stand.

Go for it Momus...
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

Thank you Minetymenace.
I understand why there is a little more seriousness at the moment with the blokes in the Northern hemisphere.

I have the basic frame completed still has to be bracketed and engine mounted. It came up ok but has a slight woof due to lack of care welding that I've worked around.

The oil pump issue- not having one- has also been addressed. Given the amount of reworking required to use the Beezer duplex thing (apart from obtaining a good one at a fair price), and only wanting single stage. I have made a new body and shaft for a small H0nda gear rotor unit. I am very familiar with them and despite being tiny they have more than enough capacity. This pump runs off a gear on the B50 crankthat replaces the std worm gear. Pump mounting is on the std rh case pad but with revised galleries. The new crank gear is bigger diameter and also doubles as the heavy spreader washer so frees up space

Photos to come when my PC gets reliable internet again and I can coax Photobucket to behave.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by minetymenace »

Momus, I'll move this topic to the Project Bikes section (when I get round to it).

If you put photos on Photobucket, they won't necessarily be visible here, in fact if you reference photos stored elsewhere it is only a matter of time before the link is broken and the text in the topic becomes meaningless. While I cannot dictate, I would recommend (to everyone) that you/they upload photos here so that text and images are preserved for prosperity. The forum is littered with topics containing broken links and the text only serves to tease.

How to upload pictures, or email them to Rickard or me and we'll post them
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

This video tutorial, what has happened to it?

What is the email address for photo forwarding mate?
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by minetymenace »

Email on its way to you :)

Yep, uploading pictures is not what it was!!
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by beat »

Momus wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:55 pm chrome moly-4130 TIG welded with mild steel filler rod.
why this :?: :?: :?:

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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by gunnag »

Hi Momus,
for many years I've wondered whether a unit single BSA could be converted from dry sump to wet sump so I think it's great that you're having a go at it.

I imagine there are several obstacles to overcome when making such a radical change to the lube system:-
- a new oil tank will need fabricating which would sit under the engine and allow sufficient ground clearance. New mounting tabs might need adding to the frame rails to hold the new tank.
- How would the oil tank attach to the existing sump? I guess you could adapt one of the original steel or alloy sump plates so that oil could freely drain into the new sump. To help with oil draining it might be useful to remove the existing gauze screen.
- the existing oil scavenge pipe would need lengthening so that it picks up oil from the base of the new sump. I guess one advantage is that the oil might not be aerated as much.
- the oil pump and supply system would need modification so that the scavenge side pulls oil from the sump and instead of returning it to the frame oil tank, it feeds the big end and rockers. The existing supply side would need to be blanked off. Exactly how this is all done is unknown to me but I'm sure it can be achieved.

Anyway, have a go at it, it would be really interesting to see how it works out.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

beat wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:25 pm
Momus wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:55 pm chrome moly-4130 TIG welded with mild steel filler rod.
why this :?: :?: :?:

beat <201 <201
Frame wont be heat treated- the mild steel filler is not as short as the higher alloy wire used for that.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

gunnag wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:00 pm Hi Momus,
for many years I've wondered whether a unit single BSA could be converted from dry sump to wet sump so I think it's great that you're having a go at it.

I imagine there are several obstacles to overcome when making such a radical change to the lube system:-
- a new oil tank will need fabricating which would sit under the engine and allow sufficient ground clearance. New mounting tabs might need adding to the frame rails to hold the new tank.
- How would the oil tank attach to the existing sump? I guess you could adapt one of the original steel or alloy sump plates so that oil could freely drain into the new sump. To help with oil draining it might be useful to remove the existing gauze screen.
- the existing oil scavenge pipe would need lengthening so that it picks up oil from the base of the new sump. I guess one advantage is that the oil might not be aerated as much.
- the oil pump and supply system would need modification so that the scavenge side pulls oil from the sump and instead of returning it to the frame oil tank, it feeds the big end and rockers. The existing supply side would need to be blanked off. Exactly how this is all done is unknown to me but I'm sure it can be achieved.

Anyway, have a go at it, it would be really interesting to see how it works out.
Mechanically and fabrication wise its all but done mate.

The sump is attached to the engine using the original 4 holes for the tin plate.

I didn't have a B50 pump for this project so I made a simple single stage unit using H0nda 75 cc trochoid gears. The new pump and crank drive gear fit up was a bit of a fiddle with some case welding and machining.

Read the entire thread for my approach.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by gunnag »

Some pics would be great :)
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by twinshocker »

Momus wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:41 am .......However the aim of the exercise is to simplify and lighten the bike, clean up the engine's unpleasant hoses-fittings-tubes everywhere.......
First of all i want to make clear that i don´t want to talk bad about your project , i like it when people think out of the box , so go for it !l :thumb
But if you built a Clews Stroks style frame let me say that the oil hoses on a CCM are exactly two and they are approx. 80- 100 mm long. Thats because Alan put the connectors at the frame where they have their logic place ccmicon without all the B50 plumbing.

But again: No worries Mate !!! <219
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

gunnag wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:19 am Some pics would be great :)
Some shots coming. Photo loading after the first has a glitch. I'm sending some to Gerry via email for him to post.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

twinshocker wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:18 pm
Momus wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:41 am .......However the aim of the exercise is to simplify and lighten the bike, clean up the engine's unpleasant hoses-fittings-tubes everywhere.......
First of all i want to make clear that i don´t want to talk bad about your project , i like it when people think out of the box , so go for it !l :thumb
But if you built a Clews Stroks style frame let me say that the oil hoses on a CCM are exactly two and they are approx. 80- 100 mm long. Thats because Alan put the connectors at the frame where they have their logic place ccmicon without all the B50 plumbing.

But again: No worries Mate !!! <219
[/quote

Still two too many😉

I was referring to the base bike B50.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

ImageI have managed to finalise fitting the wet sump pump to the engine. It lives in the same position as the std arrangement. I had to weld up and mill the mounting pad on the RH case to accept the mount screws and to connect the delivery side to the original gallery. I tapped the old galleries and turned up some threaded plugs, installed with retaining compound, to block everything redundant and give the case strength a bit of a help.
I've bench tested it running it with a drill. Initially it was a bit hard to get going. I sealed the mating face with some raspberry jam Loctite and after a prime it works like a beauty.
There are still details to look at, and the actual metal sump. I am fitting the engine and making mounts now and will be onto the sump when that is done.
Today's effort will be to see if the engine can be made easy to fit and remove with fixed engine mounts, only spacers; so no messy secondary plates and fasteners.. I've given it a bit of extra head to top tube room, (and gained a bit due to the dry frame having a 2" rather than the larger oif member) with this in mind.
In some good news I re discovered the CR250M triple clamps I bought in 2017 for this project so can now make the steering stem - from 7075 Al. - and organise the lock stops. The CR clamps are 35 mm so lets me choose from a variety of fork legs.
Last edited by Momus on Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by skippy »

If it's not self priming how are you going to be sure it primes and pumps each time you use it?
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by FranktheWelder »

Great thread.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

skippy wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:31 am If it's not self priming how are you going to be sure it primes and pumps each time you use it?
Good question.

The pump gears will stay oily in the bike: the layout for valve gear lubrication means there is always going to be a little coming back. The pump won't have any air leaks (the initial issue prior to the raspberry jam) and the sump oil level will be higher.
I will also fit a thumb screw bleeder to allow a quick visual check.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

Engine mounting is substantially done with spacers either side for alignment just in case. Funny set up for sure the B50 compared to Japanese, with only a single, upper rear mount and the frame tube penetration required for the lower mount. I was pretty tempted to weld a conventional lower rear mount to the angle of the gear box housing and stabilise the twisting from drive torque as close to inline as possible. We shall see how it goes with regarding mount bracket durability.

I've been working on the engine specs for this beast and one of the things that was deemed important enough to look hard at was the cylinder to head seal integrity and any possible issues. I'm always wary of head stud depth of crankcase insertion. The old Beezer has about 2d of coarse 7/16 UNC? into relatively soft ally (LM25?) With a fine thread for the other end. I've CNC turned some new strong studs with a lower M12 thread and up to 3.5d insertion. Using a thread forming tap it should be possible to almost double the pull out strength to allow for far more tension if required for a fire seal. Engine is about 670cc as planned and around 13 or 14:1 compression so I expect some issue sorting the seal. I intend to use a MLS gasket or a steel shim with a wire ring and a receiver groove arrangement. Anyway all of that is at least a month away.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

I did quite a bit on the chassis and it should be rolling in a week. While working I decided what I would name this bike: all my bikes have names.
I am convinced that the British PM conducted a biological experiment on himself and depending on perspective the result could be considered an abject failure or a modest success; as well as a warning. So with some similarities in mind it is 'The Boris Johnson'
I have also done some more on the lubrication system. Another word, what were they thinking with the top end feed? It is only slightly more positive than drip feed, but works well at least from the point of view of the good condition the bits are in.
I've made a fitting that screws into the pressure relief valve port and takes one of the very small modern filter elements then redirects the properly filtered oil to the crank nose. In this fitting there is provision for a restrictor jet so I can maintain pressure at 3 to 5 psi in that section and use it to positively feed the top end. I have some ground1/2" bar stock that I'll make new rocker shafts from and feed the oil in the rh side, hopefully making for a more efficient system.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by beat »

Momus wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:22 pm all my bikes have names.
good idea !
Momus wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:37 pm Engine is about 670cc as planned and around 13 or 14:1 compression
so, what Bore and Stroke " Boris Johnson " do have :?: :?:

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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

He only has a bore -of 92mm- at the moment, no crank. I am contemplating the crank: I do not have one loose. Ninety mm, 100mm and 104mm are possibilities.

I have some suitable steel and will make one when I get my hands on a sample to work from.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by twinshocker »

Momus wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:37 pm Engine mounting is substantially done with spacers either side for alignment just in case........
Good idea not only for alignment.
I found it always a pain in the ass to remove and mount engines that are bolted directly into the frame. Even small spacers make life a lot easier. :thumb
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

twinshocker wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:53 pm
Momus wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:37 pm Engine mounting is substantially done with spacers either side for alignment just in case........
Good idea not only for alignment.
I found it always a pain in the ass to remove and mount engines that are bolted directly into the frame. Even small spacers make life a lot easier. :thumb
This is my first build with one these engines and their heavy left hand offset so playing it safe with spacers to fiddle chain alignment as well. Doing the head steady presently. I'm a weight minimising crusader so aluminium or magnesium spacers.

The dummy engine easily lifts out from the LH side with the rocker box in place. I intend to convert it to bolts rather than studs regardless.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

Spent time today finishing the roughed in lower engine mount on The Boris. I am using 10 mm bolts for the 3 points. The Beezer cases are drilled about 10.1 for the nominal 9.5 mm std. fasteners I have been able to get them all a neat, sliding fit.
The lower bolt enters from the left and passes through the case into the RH ferrule. I've made this blind tapped and with a 2D counter bore to be able to use a supported shorter bolt and do away with the unsightly nut. I make my steel weld in ferrules and fittings from a fairly unusual alloy steel- HyTuf- that is supplied in the annealed condition and designed to be welded. It turns and drills nicely and air quenches to a good hardness when welded.
With everything accounted for, except the lock stops, fuel tank mount and footpeg frame clevis' it has come in at a bit over 24 lbs. The aluminium swing arm weighs about 4lb with pivot bolt, top plastic slide and modern style passive chain guide. No troublesome, heavy, spring loaded roller arrangement wanted. Pivot is bronze bushed with little cup seals and a greaser.
I've been critical of Beezer snail cams and this arm came with the almost as ugly and more dangerous single sided back pullers. I'm gonna convert this one to forward-of-the-axle jack screws with the unused thread housed in the arm.
I'm running it rh brake pedal with a rh brake plate. I cannot see the point of a torque arm and associated bits so will do this to a no-loose-parts fixed pin and slot in the backing plate.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by twinshocker »

So you convert it to LH shifting ?
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

twinshocker wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:47 pm So you convert it to LH shifting ?
Yes, Boris will be LH shift.
Possibly like a Powerglide auto: 2 speeds if the clutch, cc's, head and cam I'm contemplating works out.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Jack Gifford »

This would be an off-topic question, except that PowerGlide was mentioned. I recently read somewhere(?) about a H*nda (race bike?) that used epicyclic (planetary) gearing. I can't picture such a thing, since it was a multi-speed box, 5 or 6 speed. Anybody here know of such an animal? Or did the author misspeak?

Minety- just throw me outa' here if this is too off-topic.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

They have a 10 speed car Auto transmission with 4 planetary gear sets. It weighs as much as a B50MX.
Dunno about the bike job. I do know that the oil pump l made for wet sumped The Boris Johnson is planetary/ epicyclic.

Minty, do you know if the owner sorted non Photobucket uploads?
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by minetymenace »

Uploads is quite simple, use the attachments tab below (when writing the entry), you will see an "Add Files" button, this opens an explorer window where you select the files to upload. There is a file size limit, so if you try to post a high definition photo, it may fail, so you will have to reduce the size (if you don't know how to do this, let me know) and then you get the option of placing in line, adding captions etc...best to trial and error this yourself rather than explain in the middle of a topic.....
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Jeff K »

Add a oil filter like the type Norton used. Good for the oil and you will pick up a wee bit more oil capacity.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Jeff K »

I wonder how this will effect the oil temperature? A lot of the wet sump bikes that I can remember held a couple of quarts and had cooling fins. The dry systems have the added value of remote surface area to help dissipate the heat.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

minetymenace wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:02 am Uploads is quite simple, use the attachments tab below (when writing the entry), you will see an "Add Files" button, this opens an explorer window where you select the files to upload. There is a file size limit, so if you try to post a high definition photo, it may fail, so you will have to reduce the size (if you don't know how to do this, let me know) and then you get the option of placing in line, adding captions etc...best to trial and error this yourself rather than explain in the middle of a topic.....
Cheers.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

Jeff K wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:47 pm I wonder how this will effect the oil temperature? A lot of the wet sump bikes that I can remember held a couple of quarts and had cooling fins. The dry systems have the added value of remote surface area to help dissipate the heat.
Jeff
I'm wondering as well. As you say oif is an effective oil cooler. I will use a sender and bulb type VDO guage measuring sump oil temp to see what is going on initially. Ditto with pressure.
I have a head stock mount, wrap around type cooler available that I use in other air cooled bikes and the cooler block has take offs for #4 full flow cooling.
Sump will be plain and made in 2 halves and welded together. Material is 5083 a medium strength grade often used for marine applications. Finning oil sumps might be a bit questionable unless it is ribbing or for nvh. Given oil's relatively low rate of heat transfer it requires the surface contact area, so inside🤔.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

Jeff K wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:42 pm Add a oil filter like the type Norton used. Good for the oil and you will pick up a wee bit more oil capacity.
Jeff
I think I've seen that Norton setup on road B50s.

Yeah, nah for this one. I don't want any external lines. l am using a modern small bike element about half the size of your thumb. It's mounted in a cannister directly to the engine where the pressure relief valve lived.
Oil capacity is being pared back as well in the interests of saving weight and bulk. I will run it with about a litre, so similar to a modern 450 motocrosser.
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by twinshocker »

Jack Gifford wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:15 am This would be an off-topic question, except that PowerGlide was mentioned. I recently read somewhere(?) about a H*nda (race bike?) that used epicyclic (planetary) gearing. I can't picture such a thing, since it was a multi-speed box, 5 or 6 speed. Anybody here know of such an animal? Or did the author misspeak?.....
In some of their road models H*nda has a "Doppelkupplungsgetriebe" as we say in German, i dont know the term in english.They call it DCT Dual Clutch Transmission. It works with planetary gear if i remember correct. May be thats what they talked about.
So you can put the next gear in while you are in a certain gear and with the two clutches it shifts without a gap.
A mechanical marvel in my opinion if you think how little space you have in a bike gearbox
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

twinshocker wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:57 pm
Jack Gifford wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:15 am This would be an off-topic question, except that PowerGlide was mentioned. I recently read somewhere(?) about a H*nda (race bike?) that used epicyclic (planetary) gearing. I can't picture such a thing, since it was a multi-speed box, 5 or 6 speed. Anybody here know of such an animal? Or did the author misspeak?.....
In some of their road models H*nda has a "Doppelkupplungsgetriebe" as we say in German, i dont know the term in english.They call it DCT Dual Clutch Transmission. It works with planetary gear if i remember correct. May be thats what they talked about.
So you can put the next gear in while you are in a certain gear and with the two clutches it shifts without a gap.
A mechanical marvel in my opinion if you think how little space you have in a bike gearbox
Yep, they do that and have other full power seamless shift designs for their GP bikes. Fascinating stuff, tremendously complicated and with tolerances and packaging that are marvellous.

I like the steam engine approach with the old Beezer: make it big enough and torquey so one gear should be sufficient and 2 ideal.
If you love it, lube it.
Momus
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Re: Converting a B50 to wet sump.

Post by Momus »

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Odds and sods from Boris.
You can see the wet sump pump and the spur gear replacing the worm on the crank.

I should have it rolling by the weekend, albeit with a temporary front end.

I need to sit on it to work out footpeg placement and from there pedal positions.

Last photo shows the new engine main studs, oil filter element and cooler.
If you love it, lube it.
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