Electric Start

Here you can talk about all kind of TECH for the B50 B44 B25 And Other BSA unit Singles

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Electric Start

Post by beat » Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:07 pm

hi bear brothers,
not as I like to set " a new FLEA " in your ears, nor as I have a lot of spare time, but the problem of starting the engine is not only concentrated to my personality it seams.
Bossi fits a plate under the barrel-needs longer pushrods ( same as me ), brocken ore bend kickstarters, damidged quadrants, ugly words and swetting BSA riders to get the thing alive etc. etc. are just common, right?

now, espezialy on my bike, I do not loock for originality, no, I want to bring my bike in to the todays time :!:
so, I LIKE TO HAVE A ELECTRIC STARTER ON MY B50

Question: are there others seriosely interested on such a thing :?: :?:

maybe in a wheil, this word here
Mark Cook wrote:but these days in our biased opion the best you can have is below.
(se picture above in this topic )
is not longer the truth, there could be something new, why not from the same manufacture?
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Electric Start

Post by Ian Hingley » Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:26 pm

Hi beat

Don't I remember that your son already has an electric start BSA single? Or something like that anyway ...
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Electric Start

Post by minetymenace » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:43 pm

Electric start eh?

The rate my project is progressing, I think I should give an electric start serious consideration as I may be too frail to kick it over by the time it is finished.

Assuming that you could not fit an electric start on the timing gears, there are only a few places for it:
1. Off the engine sprocket (or some arrangement on an extended crank, with the starter in front of the engine)
2. Off the clutch drum (either a chain or gear arrangement with the starter over or under the gearbox)
3. Driving the gearbox main shaft replacing the existing kick start quadrant.
My money is on No. 2.

(I may split this topic)
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Electric Start

Post by rhino » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:54 pm

Isn't there room to drive it off the primary chain?

Just re- thought that one, you'd need to re-design the primary cases and put the starter motor beneath the carb :shock: :oops:

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Re: Electric Start

Post by minetymenace » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:09 am

Split and renamed, but there had to be an easier way!!

there would certainly have be a modified primary drive cover, and some way of fixing the starter motor to the engine casings....
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Re: Electric Start

Post by Ed V » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:57 am

You could mount the starter in front of the cylinder and use a sprague clutch chain driven off of the crankshaft

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Re: Electric Start

Post by eebtr7 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:23 am

Instead of an electric starter that may lead to a sprained thumb on the push button, I propose a lawn mower type recoil starter where one pulls the handle attached to a cord. The mechanism can be grafted with superglue onto the clutch basket.

I see no problems in making this modification.

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Re: Electric Start

Post by bossy » Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:05 pm

I would be looking at mounting an Idler Gear above the existing KS pinion on the mainshaft. It would need to be sized and located so the upper teeth protruded slightly above the top of the inner cover, aroundabout where the Clutch cable mounting is. You could then mount the motor roughly below the Carb.
However as anyone who has ever done this sort of prototype work will tell you this would be a hugely time consuming project and the cost of getting one-off gears made would be significant too. For the moment I intend to spend my time on optimising timing, carburation and CR to make my B44 easy to start, but will watch developments on this topic with great interest.............

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Re: Electric Start

Post by minetymenace » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:07 pm

I don't supose it is going to be done any time soon, and is mostly hypothetical, but interesting to see how it might be done and what the bigest problems are. If members can consider building a complete bike from scratch, putting an electric kick can't be poo pooed out of hand.

Interesting to see Ed going for the engine sprocket, I guess this putting the torque closest to where it is needed. No one has mentioned a dynostart type thing. Maybe the torque from a suitable size motor/generator may have to be increased with an epicyclic gearbox, resulting in just a larger primary drive and a longer stub on the crank...

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Re: Electric Start

Post by bee50 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:21 pm


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Re: Electric Start

Post by Mark Cook » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:35 pm

The XS650 has an electric start, the best thing you can do is remove it :!:
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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:38 pm

hi Jan,
yes, my son`s 650 Yama was making me realy jalous in this way. and as I stil getting older and hope to ride my BSA for a long time, the starting procedure needs to get changed I say.
so, now is the hour not to say good by, no, it is the time of surching ideas and ways to do it.
I find it very good to se the inputs of al this different ways of thinking from al you forum membres.

shortly, I will set up a basic time and monay table for this project for myself, as I do it always if I start something like.
beat <213

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Re: Electric Start

Post by minetymenace » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:51 pm

Just been to collect two XS650...best I have a look how not to do it
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Re: Electric Start

Post by Mark Cook » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:55 pm

one for me Gerry?
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Re: Electric Start

Post by Barkstar » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:20 am

XS650s eat their starter mechanisms and its not like they're hard to start with the kicker... at least this one isn't
Image

I know it's not a BSA and it's got too many cylinders but I didn't bring XS650s up :grin:

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Re: Electric Start

Post by B25Daytona » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:12 am

Hey Chris,

I also realize it's not a BSA, but I've got to say that is drop-dead gorgeous. Like many others, I appreciate all kinds of classics and that is one of those I always wanted. What a cracking example. Shame Halco went.
I recently bought a couple of SR500's because the price B50's are going is way above what I'm prepared to pay.
On the BSA front, I'll stick with the '71 B25/T100 and C15T for now, unless B50 prices get sensible.

Thanks for sharing the pic,
:ok :thumb Colin

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Re: Electric Start

Post by B25Daytona » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:21 am

I seem to remember someone telling me that a proposed/future electric start was one of the reasons that the P92 engine was angled forwards ?
As I recall, theory was that the electric foot was due to be mounted behind the cylinder, under the carb.
Is there any info anywhere on that particular development which might help here ?

Very interesting topic. I'm all for these improvements to make the classics more reliable and user friendly in the modern arena.

Cheers,
Colin

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Re: Electric Start

Post by Mark Cook » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:35 am

The bendix drives a ring gear that is part of the crank flywheel. We found that the engine was only good for around 10k miles if used. Tony and I did a lot of research on these engines, now I inhertited some of his notes, I found he'd developed some Ideas even further. Yes his loss is a great shame. I still manufacture some of his engine parts, but as the BSA stuff takes up so much time it's special orders only really.
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Re: Electric Start

Post by minetymenace » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:25 pm

bee50's quiet power drive link is along the lines of my thinking...
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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:59 pm

sorry, my son`s Yamy is a 660 XT
DSCN9824.jpg
I mean this one,
DSCN9825.jpg
and the starter drives by a gearset directly on to the crank
DSCN9826.jpg
the " free run " is made by such a bearing...
so, my ideas are going in to the direction of placing the starter underneed the carbi, and drive the cluch basket - ore the starter gear on the timing side....
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Re: Electric Start

Post by Ian Hingley » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:12 pm

I had a series of Y*maha XT225 trail bikes. Loved 'em.

Electric start mounted in front of the barrel. Drove the crank by some sort of clutch. (Is this what Ed V calls a sprag clutch?)

Three rollers, maybe 10mm dia in an eccentric track. Very light springs (like in a ballpoint pen!) pushed the rollers against the crank shaft at stand still. When the starter motor turned, these rollers gripped the crank sufficiently firmly to turn the engine. As soon as the engine fired, centrifugal force flung the rollers off the crank and along their tracks. It worked. Somehow!

Rubbish description, but I'll see if I can find a diagram. Might have some spares in the garage I can photo.
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Re: Electric Start

Post by bossy » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:29 pm

Well your description makes sense to me Ian. My Laverda uses this system, the starter 'clutch' is on the end of the crankshaft and is driven by a lightweight chain.
If you could find a way of fitting one of these to the end of the crank (remember if we want electric start we have to have an Alternator), and if there is space for the starter motor in front of the engine then this could be a neat solution.

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Re: Electric Start

Post by Ed V » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:21 pm

Bossy,
That was my thinking also

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Re: Electric Start

Post by Mark Cook » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:21 pm

So you only bugger one casting, the best place to have the drive would be on the end of the crank. With a bit of crafty engineering the lump would stick out less than an inch.
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Re: Electric Start

Post by bossy » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:53 pm

Here you go;

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Triumph-Bonnevill ... 3caa61c242

Bolt this onto the outside of the Alternator Rotor, hack the front out of the primary chaincase, cobble the starter motor onto the front of the engine and watch it shear the woodruff key.

Joking apart this is starting to look quite do-able

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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:54 pm

yeas, a lot is do-able, and nice ideas are coming up now :thumb :thumb :thumb

basecly, I do have a system to reach a do-able target. - you guis may al smile now, :grin: :grin: :grin: , but it is important for me to fallow this way.

at the beginning of any project, I make some decisions, just for the reason of not loosing track by go in to tomany directions.
then I also decide some time targets and as well some costs.

especialy the tech decisions are important to do, because they are mostly responsable for the costs and a big help for surching just in to one ore two directions of the make.
so, son I will writhe it down, and afterwards I have to keep the nose on tho the track....
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Re: Electric Start

Post by roadplough » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:18 am

Not sure I'd like any electrical sparks happening immediately beneath an Amal carburettor.
Also I'd hate to upset the sculptural front view of the engine or impair the airflow onto it.
What about the spare space behind the gearbox?
The rear projection of the timing side has a vacant space inside it (ex speedo drive ? ) suitable for another kicker quadrant or swinging idler pinion arrangement adjacent to the existing main-shaft ratchet pinion, and welding the case may not be necessary either.
Close proximity to the battery, keeps weight low down and "you'd never know it was there".
Would require new rear engine mounts to surround the starter and some sort of mechanism to deal with kick-back (swinging idler) unless employing a motor heavy enough to deal with the compression stroke, an alternative there being manual valve-lifter plus starter button technique. I guess.

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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:29 pm

yes roadi, I am also looking on to this point, as well on to the place above the cluch .
the Cheney frame is difficult behind the gearbox, - the easiest way seams to be to drive the cluch basket from the top.
- but- the biggest problem I realise in the " electric part " . no, not the relai and the wiring, - it is the point of - driving a strong starter motor by a 4 A / hour battery ! the dropping of the voltage by the high Amps flow for the starter is unlucky at the same moment as the Ignition needs the highest Voltage for a strong Sparking !
yes I know, a CDI is the answer, producing a strong spark by a voltage shortly over 6 volts already - but at the moment I am not there..... :cry:

at the moment, I am on a other point, - <937 <978 <010 <096 <067 <013 <935
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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:38 pm

hi al,
I guess, I have found a ( ad least theoreticaly ) way for the electricaly solution for driving the EL Starter as well as the ignition by proper 12 Volts.

so now, today, I will decide some points, ore as I cal it - targets.
1. El. Starter running on separate battery.
2. EL. Starter located above gearbox, driving the cluch basket.
3. Engine cases modifying reduced to the chain case cover.
4. operating the starter process maight be partly manual.

5. costs for the al project: around 2.5 K SFr.
6. time to reach the point of succes - ore giving up- 3 years .

so, and as a note, I have asket my wife, what she means to this points : she says : if you need it for your happyness - do it :!: <058
beat <055

beat, also knowing, within this time, he has to pass trough some others like <218 <010 <119 <939 <051 <134 <030 <009 <948 and so on..... <982

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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:50 pm

hi minety, if we are stressing you by mooving around topics, dos it matter much to stress you a bit more :?:

as a wish from beat : can you move this "electric starter on B50" please in to the PROJECTS please :?: :?:

the reason : as it seams to go a bit longer, I guess I will find it easier in this section, because there are not so many TOPICS where I have to surch in...... :laugh :laugh :laugh
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Re: Electric Start

Post by Ian Hingley » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:00 am

hi beat

Can I marry Hannalore please??
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Re: Electric Start

Post by minetymenace » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:52 am

Beat:
Moralising about the correct place for a topic is distracting me from riding my bikes. <216 I delivered a couple of Easter eggs to Mark and Anita (who were hard at work making swarf), stopped off to see a couple of other people (who were not riding, just bitching...."Its needs a clean" or "Its got an oil leak", jealousy I guess), but back home now to deliberate on moving another topic....so here goes:

When you start making the electric start, it becomes a project. Just because Hannalore sanctions the spending doesn’t convert a technical discussion into a project. Having authorisation from the wife is fantastic, and you are duty bound to order her to teach my wife to adopt the same way of thinking.

Its not raining, so I'm off to introduce a miracle of Small Heath to the local horse riding community...
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Re: Electric Start

Post by Mark Cook » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:46 pm

...."Its needs a clean" or "Its got an oil leak", jealousy I guess)

Gerry has both on one bike ;-)

Thanks for the choccy Gerry
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Re: Electric Start

Post by kommando » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:53 pm


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Re: Electric Start

Post by Mark Cook » Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:04 pm

Thanks Kommando, I can see why I'm poor now :!: Have you looked at the price list :?:
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Re: Electric Start

Post by minetymenace » Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:33 pm

I have e-mailed Phil Pearson, hopefuly he will post...........I guess the starter goes between the crank and gearbox casings, no room there on a B50....
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Re: Electric Start

Post by kommando » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:38 pm

Yep, but you can see the concept, single chain for starter and duplex for the primary so we just need a triple engine sprocket. I sell briggs and stratton starter motors and deal direct with the manufacturer so I can cover that side.

Another option is using gears

http://www.startyourbsa.co.uk/about_us.html

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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:00 pm

- 1.--- hi Jan, no, you can not :!: . bevore this happen, I will give you my B50 as a present in case <019
beat :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: <217 :mrgreen:

this other ideas are realy good, --but are related to other circumstances I say.
the B50 is realy unic, the unit single is built up very narrow, by keeping my targets in mind, there is not much space to play with!

have anyone see the battery this other guy is using ? 14 AH
the experiance I have made with my WOODHARVESTER ( Iron Hose, 350cc ) by fitting a el. starter on it, has shown me, it needs around 2 RPM by the second to get it running.
so, any starter needs a gearbox to come down to this revs.
as a next do it will be to find outh witch starter gos on wich revs, and thinking of the final transmition it needs between crankshaft and starter shaft...
<213

hi kommando, what revs are your B+S starters on ?

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Re: Electric Start

Post by kommando » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:08 pm

They vary between 14 to 16 teeth on the starter, they mesh into a 10" diameter flywheel with a gear ring on the od, will count teeth tomorrow. The 14 teeth starters start a 500cc single cylinder.

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Re: Electric Start

Post by steve m » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:24 pm

not sure this will help....
as we know from the breather on Stan's flattracker, there is room for a shaft from the right side of the engine to the left and it enters the primary chaincase just below the top chain run (with a bit of jiggling) and just infront of the drum. could be useful?

steve

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