Electric Start

Here you can talk about all kind of TECH for the B50 B44 B25 And Other BSA unit Singles

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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:25 pm

minetymenace wrote:Hydraulic clutch?
NO, - hydraulic gear shift. :thumb
:cool:

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Re: Electric Start

Post by skippy » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:59 pm

I have looked at them and wondered if they would work as a clutch shifter.
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Re: Electric Start

Post by minetymenace » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:38 am

Someone put up a link please <929 , I have no idea what you are on about....
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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:24 pm

minetymenace wrote:Someone put up a link please , I have no idea what you are on about....
hi all
do I got it right as it is difficult to understand what this hydraulic is for ??

if so:
please look at the gear No.8 in the drawing Top view
Topview 4.3.pdf
(546.89 KiB) Downloaded 120 times
here it is to see as the gear No. 8 is NOT engaged with gear No. 9.
means , for the starting process it needs to be shifted sideways on the axle to reach No.9.
( on the other side to gear No. 7 it is always at least partly engaged )
this sideway moving will be done by a pin, the pin will be hydralikaly forced by the lever near the trottle as to see.
DSCN0445.jpg
two fingers needed for gear shifting...
more picis will explain what it is doing....
<216

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Re: Electric Start

Post by minetymenace » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:25 pm

I think you can do away with the ignition key, if any thief is savvy enough to work out how to start it, they should be presented with it as a prize!!! I understand now beat.
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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:07 pm

minetymenace wrote:I think you can do away with the ignition key,
I don't think so. :grin:
as the entering the teeth of Z8 and Z9 in each other will be difficult, I guess it will be best to switch on key after this engaging process....

<212

BTW, on this actor cylinder, it is doing 6mm working travel by a diameter of 12 mm.

means, my reactor needs to be 8 mm to do a travel of about 11 mm for good shifting the gear.

unlucky , none of the other parts I bought has such a small piston.
needs designing a new small hydraulic reactor now....
<216

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Re: Electric Start

Post by minetymenace » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:26 am

I used one off a push-bike brake as the slave cylinder on my Guzzi....I'll try to find out what it was....
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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:31 pm

reactor = slave cylinder. :thumb

two out of the batch I bought are from pushbikes.
both are 12 mm size.
the two others are for scooters, they have 17 mm.
those scooter ones are by far to huge in size about the handle and the reservoir, otherwise I could use them as masters.

now I do surch for a seal ring for hydraulik cylinder in the sice of 8 mm.
but : difficult to find.
two alternatives are : seals for pneumatics ore X- ring ore O- ring.
- ore doing the shifting NOT by hydraulic, no, doing it by cable.....
- ore by a el. magneto....

it makes me thinking.... <201
<213

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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:57 pm

Hmmmm,

by NOT sealing it as a piston, no, - using a shaft seal for 8 mm for this piston, it is easy to find something...

guess problem solved ( theoretically ) with the SKF Wellendichtring 8 X 18 X 5 HMSA 10 RG ore the 7 X 16 X 7 HMSA 10 RG.

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Re: Electric Start

Post by twinshocker » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:39 am

Beat i think this would be much easier to move the gear mechanically .

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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:01 pm

twinshocker wrote:i think this would be much easier to move the gear mechanically .
yes, in a way, this would be right.

but I do not like much the cables, ( tooo old fashion :oops: )

so I give it a try as fallow :
Slave Zyl Layout 1.pdf
(106.07 KiB) Downloaded 121 times
needs some more detailed drawings, but I think it may work one day.... <216

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Re: Electric Start

Post by minetymenace » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:58 pm

Looks good to me beat :thumb
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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:44 pm

hi minety

It dos Not look good enough to me, - no.

By surching a solution to seal and to fixate this Slave to the carbon plate, I get stuck.
I do realice as I need to have the gear No. 8 on its final place to be able for a good design.
Space is so rarely, I need to do the bores for the axle and the bushings for the axle First.
I do Need the gears from mark Cook now first to be able to continouse my Job !!


beat :???:

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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:43 pm

CHRISTMAS !!
DSCN0456.jpg
the set of gears made by PES, mark cook
got the gears today, looking good :!: :!: :!:

<1005 <1005 <1005

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Re: Electric Start

Post by iron monger » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:49 pm

Those gears look beautifull Beat

Merry Christmas <217

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Re: Electric Start

Post by Jack Gifford » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:18 am

Nice Christmas present!
What alloy?
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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:42 pm

Jack Gifford wrote:What alloy?
I don't know, - it smells for C45 :?:

....... I have to ask mark.

Lot of work now the next few days.After this, they will go back to PES for hardening and grinding.

beat.... <216

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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:16 pm

DSCN0458.jpg
the engaging of the flywheel gear
a tricky place, difficult to find the center of the shaft for the gear Z 8 ( the shifting gear )
because it has to engage at the same time with Z7 ( the sprag gear )
DSCN0462.jpg
sprag gear set in place
DSCN0463.jpg
as a result, Z 6 is in place
so tomorrow, the next gear sets will get the exactly centerbores.
DSCN0464.jpg
beat <216

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Re: Electric Start

Post by AJ CCM » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:31 am

:thumb
Regards AJ CCM

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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:17 pm

the last two days working " backwards " from the big wheel Z6 to the right to find the exactly centers for the other axles.
DSCN0465.jpg
DSCN0466.jpg
with the help of some dummies
a word to the axle distances have been given by crankbuster on the drawing SIDE VIEW :
those distances are 100 % correctly, the problem was as I had to start with the biggest gear to fit in to the box.
means, all the indexed positions where wrong because the all train was shifted to the left by nearby one mm. :cry:

then the last one, - the position for the starter motor
DSCN0467.jpg
find the spot on place for the starter boss
DSCN0470.jpg
welding done....
all gears in place now looking good....
DSCN0473.jpg
DSCN0475.jpg
at this time I came to a point I like to fix:
DSCN0477.jpg
a boss to prevent the primary cover from slyping upwards
IMO, at the last two gears, the one on the flywheel and the one in the cover, there is a enormous torque.
I do not trust the tree dowels to cop with this forces, so I set this boss wich touches the engine case.
DSCN0479.jpg
here is the place the boss will engage.
DSCN0480.jpg
the boss with the gasket for Taff fit

next pice of elephant is the find of the center holes on both front plates....
DSCN0481.jpg
some of the job is done....
<216

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Re: Electric Start

Post by minetymenace » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:38 pm

beat wrote:a boss to prevent the primary cover from slyping upwards
Never thought of that, only when you mention it, it becomes obvious :idea: ! Great work beat. :thumb
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Re: Electric Start

Post by Jack Gifford » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:35 am

Must feel good to see so much of it going together! :grin:
"Motley" bike history: Horex 400, 1940 HD 45 FH, HD Baja 100, '49 Indian Scout 440, Victor 441 Roadster, H*nda TL125, Guzzi V50, H*nda FT500, 400-4, NX250
Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs

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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:34 pm

Jack Gifford wrote:Must feel good to see so much of it going together!
most is going together quit good, - one thing it must go together each time the el starter should work is the two gears Z8 and the flywheel gear Z9.

so I worked on the cut of the gears today:
DSCN0482.jpg
each teeth needs a recent : Z8
at the today unhardenet gear Z8 I could do it with the file....
DSCN0484.jpg
angle grinder needed on Z9
the flywheel gear is already hardened,so no chance with the rasp...
DSCN0483.jpg
looks good IMO after a wile...
the engaging the gear is the most unknown point on the all project for me until it will be ready to be used.
the cut on each teeth will help to engage, but there is still a chance as the teeth will exactly meet a other in center and the gear will not slide in position.

I do have some ideas for a solution but at first I will try it the simply way....

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Last edited by beat on Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Electric Start

Post by minetymenace » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:02 pm

What has that grinding done to the hardening beat?
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Re: Electric Start

Post by Jack Gifford » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:31 am

beat wrote: ... I do have some ideas for a solution but at first I will try it the simply way...
I'll be interested to see your solutions. I could see two possibilities-
1> Do a little more shaping of the mating sides of the gear teeth- to eliminate the flat triangle at each tooth edge.
2> Shorten the mating edge of every-other tooth on one of the gears a few millimeters (shortened teeth don't need as much chamfer). This is not my idea- it's been used (for a century?) for many applications of mating moving gears and splines.

I would rather see those edges (where tooth faces and ends meet your chamfers) "softened" somewhat to reduce local stress risers. You could avoid much labor by having the one gear shot-peened prior to heat-treat. The one that's already harderned would need those edges broken with a fine abrasive wheel or handheld stone.
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Aside from bikes: known as the "guru" of M/T hemi Pontiacs

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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:28 pm

minetymenace wrote:What has that grinding done to the hardening beat?
it has made it a bit softer, this is right.
I think it is the steel C45 ore CK 45, so, hardened fully trough and re- softened as next. means, the surface isn't much harder than the all pice.
but as this 1.5mm part of the teeth is just used to slip in, not to take the torque for driving the wheel, I guess it will not disturb the function much.
how ever, - on a experimental project like this you always have to live with some compromises at the first go..... :oops:

Jack Gifford wrote:I'll be interested to see your solutions. I could see two possibilities-
1> Do a little more shaping of the mating sides of the gear teeth- to eliminate the flat triangle at each tooth edge.
2> Shorten the mating edge of every-other tooth on one of the gears a few millimeters (shortened teeth don't need as much chamfer). This is not my idea- it's been used (for a century?) for many applications of mating moving gears and splines.
hi jack

my first ideas vent in to the same directions as yours, truly. ( remembrances of the old starter gears of Buiks, VWs, DKWs, Opels and others :grin: )
but then I came up with several others as:
- bringing this sliding gear in a little motion ( rotation ) whilst schifting it.
several ways to do this like winding the return spring in the direction of not working against the sprag when got pressed.
( each presser spring dos a small rotating moovement when get pressed to shorter )
this is why I have already made springs with left side and right side winding.
- ore like electricaly starting the starter motor SLOWLY when starting shifting, - and go for full speed when gear has engaged completely .

a other way could be : each time the gear returns to fully desengaged position, it will be a little bit rotated in the way of NOT working against the sprag.
this could be done by a angle position of the slave cylinder and making the piston of the slave slightly rotating.
would mean, I had to flip the lever of the hydraulic master a few times until the gears will match.
I guess, it will be easily to feel on the master handle if the gears are matching ore not.
at least I could live with something the like....

beat ...... ( working on the papers for the last little modifications on this gear train )
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Re: Electric Start

Post by twinshocker » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:14 am

beat wrote:
Jack Gifford wrote:What alloy?
Lot of work now the next few days.After this, they will go back to PES for hardening and grinding.

beat.... <216
These gears are onlky working while you start the bike so i think grinding them would not be necessary.
The hardening can be done in Switzerland you have good specialists there.
But its your decision !

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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:41 pm

twinshocker wrote:These gears are onlky working while you start the bike so i think grinding them would not be necessary.
this is right for the gears teeth.
but as some places needing fit with needelbearings, they must be fine corse finally.
a other hot spot is the place for the sprag. need high precisely diameters as well....
if not exactly done, the sprag will not grip ore will slip....

worked on the CFK plate today.
some of the bores are done, some needing a bushing as a insert
DSCN0485.jpg
CFK plate NOT finished ...
beat <216

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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:54 pm

working at the alu plate today
DSCN0486.jpg
reaming the bores
DSCN0488.jpg
lot of milling work
DSCN0489.jpg
the CFK plate needs sealing the cutting surfaces and inserting the bushings to be finish.

the alu plate is on the way as well....
DSCN0490.jpg
dos not look so bad
next will be: the gear shift <017

<216

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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:25 pm

attempt Nr 7 ( Version 1.1 to 1.6 failed :oops: ) for this slave zylinder to shift the gear :
Push pin slave zylinder.pdf
(72.55 KiB) Downloaded 118 times
and the adds it needs :
Push pin and sleeve.pdf
(65.63 KiB) Downloaded 115 times
so far in theory, ....

beat <216

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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:25 pm

getting nearer...
DSCN0492.jpg
gear shift slave zylinder on the way
DSCN0491.jpg
DSCN0494.jpg
the seal ring and the recent in the front plate is used to seal the piston, to seal the slave cylinder to the primary cover and to align the cylinder to the push pin bore.
beat <216

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Re: Electric Start

Post by minetymenace » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:28 am

beat wrote:to seal the piston, to seal the slave cylinder to the primary cover and to align the cylinder to the push pin bore
Killing three birds with one stone, and eating elephants, if beat carries on like this there will be no wildlife left to run over! :ban

You going to put the bleed nipple in the banjo bolt?
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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:53 pm

minetymenace wrote:You going to put the bleed nipple in the banjo bolt?
I don't know what this means language wise :oops:

got a bit foreward on it:
DSCN0495.jpg
slave is ready
note as the CFK plate is not ready to take the slave.
DSCN0496.jpg
this is where it will siting
<212 <212

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Re: Electric Start

Post by skippy » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:02 pm

beat wrote:I don't know what this means language wise
How are you going to get the air out of the slave cylinder and the fluid in?
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Re: Electric Start

Post by skippy » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:09 pm

And when you are finished can you make one to fit directly into the clutch actuation hole so I can do away with all the changes of direction of motion which adds so much extra resistance.
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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:50 pm

skippy wrote:How are you going to get the air out of the slave cylinder and the fluid in?
Hmmmmm, - now I got it.

as this slave is easely to take it off the engine ( 3 smal crews only ), I will hold it upright ( hose entering from below ), then making a resistent to the piston by a finger and pumping fluid in by the master.
when the piston popes out by the seal - it will be full.
pressing the piston back in to place will ejecting the fluid back to the master - and it should be filled. ( hopefully <205 )

honestly : I was not thinking about this :oops: :oops: :oops:

beat <017

skippy wrote: make one to fit directly into the clutch actuation hole
do you mean the hole in the primary case ??
ergo, - this would mean a " puller slave " , - if I get it right :?: :?:

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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:37 pm

hi skippy
skippy wrote:so I can do away with all the changes of direction of motion which adds so much extra resistance.
you know as I do use something the like on my clutch since years :
DSCN9772.jpg
DSCN9779.jpg
so at least the cable is away.... :lol: :lol:
beat

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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:50 pm

searchet and find a way to get the cable from the generator to the outside:
DSCN0503.jpg
somewhere between the gears
DSCN0506.jpg
welding a guide to the bushing
DSCN0508.jpg
DSCN0509.jpg
a bit narrow....
DSCN0510.jpg
done....
just the PG9 " Stopfbüchse " need to be in place....

beat <216

Edit by MM:
Stopfbüchse= cable gland or stuffing gland

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Re: Electric Start

Post by beat » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:12 pm

hi all
DSCN0528.jpg
gland and cable fix in position
DSCN0522.jpg
DSCN0518.jpg
anyone knows what this is ??
DSCN0517.jpg
as space is very rarely here.....
needet a special flyer- head on the bolt to fix the stator.
unlucky me, I put the stator in a wrong position in compare to the gear Z8, so it needs a unusual solution.... :oops: :oops: :oops:

anyway, all is in place ( with dummies in state of needle bearings now )
DSCN0534.jpg
DSCN0535.jpg
space for the clutch cable / slave cylinder left.
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evan space given for my oilery....
DSCN0537.jpg
a bracket needed now for the support of the starter motor
beat <216

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minetymenace
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Re: Electric Start

Post by minetymenace » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:34 pm

Gave up on the plastic then beat?

I guess it is rip it all down and get them cogs hardened now....
There is no evidence to support the notion that life is serious.
Abyssinian Wire-Haired Tripehounds Gnash.

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