Rear frame oil connection

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Rear frame oil connection

Post by petef » Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:13 am

Hi Guys,

Was looking at how best to connect an oil line to the drain at the rear of the frame. I had seen the brake pipe connection mod, but I thought brake pipe internal diameter a bit small for the job. I have some JIC - 1/8 NPT (I think it is a JIC2?) fittings and after checking the frame hole size, tapped out the frame drain hole to 1/8 NPT. The existing hole size is perfect, so no drilling out required. The internal diameter is 4.5mm.
Until everything is back in the frame, I won't know which fittings will be best but as you can see from the photos, I have a number of options.
An added benefit will be that when I come to change the oil, I can screw off the female fitting & screw on one with a pipe attached for draining off.

Cheers,

Pete
Attachments
Tapping the drain hole.jpg
Tapping the drain hole
Fitting in frame.jpg
Fitting in frame
Fittings options.jpg
Fittings options

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by eebtr7 » Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:58 pm

My 11th Commandment is: Thou shalt NEVER alter the basic frame or engine fittings. Thou shalt instead ALWAYS alter the new part fittings.

This means the new male spigot fitting is rethreaded to fit the original drain hole threads. This keeps the frame stock in the event one wishes to return to the stock layout.

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by Richard Hunt » Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:22 pm

eebtr + 1

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by petef » Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:15 pm

Looks like all my work on this & the breather has been a terrible crime! Setting fire to the bike as I speak! Remind me to never post anything again.

Pete

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by Grayham » Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:08 pm

If anyone asks, tell them a previous owner stripped the thread, so you had to tap it out bigger anyway. ;-)
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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by Barry Creary » Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:16 pm

Peter it's your bike do it how you want look at <1011 bike building <917 <917 <917 and keep posting I like your work :thumb

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by skippy » Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:45 pm

I found a mig welder tip piece that screwed straight in.
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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by petef » Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:36 am

Thanks Barry, appreciated.
If I wanted to return it to original I could just put a bolt & fibre washer back in or I could helicoil it back to original thread. But changing a thread, come on?????
The hole diameter can now deliver something like a reasonable volume of oil to more match the other original internal diameter feed at the front of the frame. Flow will always take the path of least resistance, so without near matching internal diameters, it's not worth doing this mod to use the "dead" oil in the back of the frame.
I know there is purists out there who have to have every last original washer, etc. That isn't me & my bike once finished will be a long way from original, so I don't give a toss about a thread change in the frame, it was changed from an engineer's perspective. From the purist's perspective, that will be the least of the basterdisation I will have done to the bike. Reference my breather mod posting & polishing off cast marks as well for other acts of heresy!!

Pete

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by Andy Chaos » Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:09 am

Pete
On the frame we are using for the Bonneville attempt I daren't show you my modification to the dead oil at the back section, they might Hang me. :uhu
Keep up the good work
Andy

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by Mark Cook » Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:28 am

It's a big mistake to use the oil from the settling pond!
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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by Grayham » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:05 am

Is that really such a problem with modern detergent oils? As far as I know, every other engine ever designed circulates all its oil, why should some BSA unit singles be the odd one out?
To get the best of both worlds, how about replacing that elbow with a T connector on its side?
Oil comes in the top and flows out the side. Sediment drops down the bottom, where you can use something as simple as a length of hose with an end cap as your sludge trap.
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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by Barry Creary » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:24 am

Pete don't take to much notice, these guys have helped me that much I could not have believed and Mark and Anita are the best, there parts are the best quality I have found all over ( sorry Ed V has great quality parts to and is very good with advice) so don't take it to seriously cause these guys will have a joke with you, keep posting :thumb

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by Canberra » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:31 am

Pete, I'm with you. Why worry 1/8 NPT is a better thread than the original 3/8 UNF. If you wanted to go back to standard setup you just put a 1/8 NPT taper bung in it which should seal better.

Personally I use a small gauze filter on the rear line and with that set up you actually get to use all the frames oil instead of only the forward frame pipe. The engine will run marginally cooler and if you live in an environment like Oz, it's needed in summer.

You can actually drain the frame when you replace the oil easier instead of letting it dribble all over your paintwork which is what happens with the standard set up (stupid idea anyway). Just have to be aware that the first time you convert you need to clean the rear part of the frame of all the accumulated sludge.

If you fit an oil filter you shouldn't need to use the rear of the frame like a rudimentary crap collector. My two cents worth.

John

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by Jeff K » Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:31 pm

Mark Cook wrote:It's a big mistake to use the oil from the settling pond!
I would just clean everything out real good and add a Norton type oil filter that Ed V sells. Works great on my B40.
Jeff

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by Jeff K » Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:36 pm

Barry Creary wrote:Peter it's your bike do it how you want look at <1011 bike building <917 <917 <917 and keep posting I like your work :thumb
I must be getting old (60). It is funny how when we bought these bikes new. The 1st thing we did was to start modifying them to our personal preference. Handlebars, tires, engine, paint, carbs, etc > and now that both we and the bikes are much older, the correct thing to do is to un-modify them and to put them back like they were new. :laugh :laugh :laugh
Jeff

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by boris » Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:04 pm

Hi all

I all so use this modification, but have used a spare oil feed pipe from the engine {part no 71-2658} these screw straight in, with no clearance
problems with the mudguard. From their, oil goes through a cylindrical filter housing a friend made for me, with the same gauze filter as used in the frame down tube. Then on into the engine veier a t connection. As Mark has mentioned this part of the frame does become a settling pond,for all
the crap from the oil. I used a stiff bottle brush extended with a wire coat hanger and piece of kit a plumber would use to unblock sinks with. Not sure what you call it? but its very much like a very long coiled spring. Great when attached to cordless drill for attagation of the sediment in back of the frame. Not so good when I got carried away when removing from the frame filler neck, drill still running full on. Oil and petrol deposited all over
kitchen wall. Lesson learned. :oops: A further flushing with lots of cellulose thinners, until it flows clear should do the trick.
For further piece of mind I've placed small but very strong magnets on top of both gauze filters and secured another to oif dip stick.
With regular oil changes, and a quick run through with bottle brush and thinners should keep the frame reasonable clean :?:

Boris

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by HPbyStan » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:23 pm

Once again, here is what I've done. You can live in the '60s and take advice from those stuck in the '60s or fix 45 year old problems. Your bike, your choice.
Image
Click on the photo and then use arrows in either direction to see the whole fix. Should be a short note under the pics.
I shouldn't talk. I still use Windows XP and Photobucket arranges my pics in a different order each time I click on them just to screw with me I guess and try to get me to upgrade.

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by Grayham » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:16 pm

You can live in the '60s and take advice from those stuck in the '60s or fix 45 year old problems.
I can just imagine anyone who worked at BSA at the time laughing at the way some people nowadays believe that the designers at Slumberglades Hall got it right first time and it can't be improved. :laugh
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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by minetymenace » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:37 pm

Or would they wonder at the arrogance of a bunch of amateur mechanics who, although blessed with better materials and the ability to obtain finer tolerances and despite the passage of 60 years, assume they know more that the collective experience of the design department of the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world for this type of engine?
:roll:
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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by HPbyStan » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:06 pm

Have you been tipping the pints again Gerry? One of the B50s best features is it leaves you the chance to fix almost everything wrong with it and most engines of any era do not. The one thing I can't figure a way around is there just isn't enough room in the cam chest for a large enough base circle on the cam shaft so DBD Gold Star type profiles aren't reliably possible imo. I changed the intake rocker arm ratio by welding two together to make one more correct one to get better valve timing results. Having reliable Rotax beating HP from a '71 B50 tells me there are improvements to be made if one is clever enough to do them. <1011

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by nopdog » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:22 am

Works for me. All that over an oil modification and a good one at that.

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by petef » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:00 am

Other people altering the original perfect design????
How can they sleep at night?
And all I did was tap out a thread slightly bigger, but at least the new thread was British.
I'm now going to whip myself with a wet shoelace as penance!

Pete

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by Barry Creary » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:49 am

Not to hard Pete :shock:

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by minetymenace » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:59 pm

Photo please :oops:
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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by Bigden28 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:03 pm

What was standard anyway? I've just put a 71 head on my T25SS and it has BSF threads in the head for the carb studs (no helicoils). All the parts books list coarse threads in the head. Also all the rocker studs were the old mixture of 1/4 and 5/16. I think the factory did what it had to to keep the dealers supplied with bikes.

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by roadplough » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:08 pm

I always carry a spare shoe lace in case I get bitten on the penance by a whip snake.

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by B44Claus » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:25 am

Gentlemen,
I have a similar project and am considering connecting the engine oil supply to the rear frame. But I'm concerned with the lack of filtration it doesn't even have a wire mesh filter as the front down tube has. I would really like to improve the oil filtration of the engine by installing a Norton commando type oil filter on the supply side. The filter would be on the suction side of the oil pump. Have any of you tried this? Or is it unwise as it will starve the engine from oil?
I would not risk damage to the engine.

Your comments and advice is welcome.

regards
Claus
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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by Barry Creary » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:30 am

Claus try Mark or Anita at PES UK for the filter converting. I did the rear of OIF connection and used a glass and metal filter but it has a plastic gorse and it works okay but doesn't warm up the same as the front of the tank so think the filter restriction is to much but I just did a fix for wet sumping today and cleaned all filters and got a lot of what looks like threads of cotton in the filters :shock: and I did clean all tank and oil ways befor engin rebuilding so don't know were it came from :werd

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by B44Claus » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:03 pm

Barry,
Thanks for the advice. I think the PES conversion locates the oil filter on the pressure side of the supply pump. That's probably the ideal location but as far as I understand that involves drilling of the cases which I'm not prepared to do. I was looking for a solution with a filter which can be fitted on the suction side of the inlet to the engine. But perhaps that's not feasible and won't work?!

Regards,
Claus
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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by HPbyStan » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:00 pm

The reason your rear supply doesn't heat up as much as the front is that it doesn't matter if you add an outlet at the rear of the frame or not if you don't install a deflector in the filler area ( there's a thread on that here somewhere) to divert the return oil from short circuiting down the "dip stick" hole. Another case of the bright lights at BSA not thinking the job all the way through. What started out as a Works MX frame that didn't need a way to check oil and didn't need a way to get oil from the rear of the frame as the bikes were flying around enough you couldn't have kept the oil back there if you wanted to. BSA added the extra tub.

Edit by MM: Not sure about the topic, but it features here.

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by Barry Creary » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:50 pm

Thanks Stan now I understand why this is happening <1011 :thumb

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by Jeff K » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:47 am

HPbyStan wrote:The reason your rear supply doesn't heat up as much as the front is that it doesn't matter if you add an outlet at the rear of the frame or not if you don't install a deflector in the filler area ( there's a thread on that here somewhere) to divert the return oil from short circuiting down the "dip stick" hole.
I think that is what Triumph did on the TR5T dipstick. They added the washer(deflector) on the dipstick.
Jeff

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by minetymenace » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:11 am

I don't think it was the TR5T, I have one of those dipsticks and the washer is too low down to fit the BSA oif frame...
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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by skippy » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:50 am

I use Steve M's idea of a 1/2" tube around the dipstick it's simple and doesn't obscure anything.
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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by Barry Creary » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:35 pm

Hay Doug any pictures

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by packw » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:58 pm

Based on the temper of this thread, I'm almost ashamed to admit that the air in my tyres did not come from Small Heath................there now I've said it!

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by roadplough » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:09 pm

I bought a front wheel from USA and it still had air in the tyre, for a while I was reluctant to let it out in Australia.

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by roadplough » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:13 pm

B44Claus wrote:I was looking for a solution with a filter which can be fitted on the suction side of the inlet to the engine.
How about an unrestricted magnetic filter?

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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by skippy » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:46 pm

Hi Barry here are the photos of the Steve m oil deflector note the turned end to fit in the hole in the frame. Do that and then cut down to size to hold it in place with dip stick screwed in tight.
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image.jpg
image.jpg
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Re: Rear frame oil connection

Post by Barry Creary » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:59 pm

Hi Doug
What size is the pipe please :?:

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