cam followers

Here you can talk about all kind of TECH for the B50 B44 B25 And Other BSA unit Singles

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stew79
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cam followers

Post by stew79 »

hi, can someone advise availability of good quality new b50 cam followers ? are radiusd ones stronger than flat ones ? is there a better metal, stillite combination to have ? how dose stellite run on a cam made of en40b ? can a hard-faced cam (stellite) run on a stellite pad ?
thanks anyone, stewart. ccm500
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Re: cam followers

Post by midgie »

others might know of good quality pattern followers, but I don't. I wouldn't suggest you buy any of the harris ones sold by most dealers in my experience. the std b50 item (71-2513) is a flat foot follower which is fine if your using up to the b50mx camshaft, any more than this say megacycle etc you need to get the cam feet radiused. if you get stuck I can supply a pair of new genuine bsa b50 followers.
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Re: cam followers

Post by stew79 »

hi midgie, thanks for the reply, i really want to get some new followers made by my local cam company. they have given me a price for a new cam, but there is too much choice of steels, heat treatment, grades of stellite etc for the followers. if they could sort it properly this is something that i could use and possibly sell some on. the cam profile i have will only work on the flat followers, so if radiused ones are better (stronger ?) they can make a new profile for the cam to keep the same degrees etc. having a british bike is a constant learning process, new problem ? just learn some new skills !
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Re: cam followers

Post by midgie »

stew79 wrote:hi midgie, thanks for the reply, i really want to get some new followers made by my local cam company. they have given me a price for a new cam, but there is too much choice of steels, heat treatment, grades of stellite etc for the followers. if they could sort it properly this is something that i could use and possibly sell some on. the cam profile i have will only work on the flat followers, so if radiused ones are better (stronger ?) they can make a new profile for the cam to keep the same degrees etc. having a british bike is a constant learning process, new problem ? just learn some new skills !
stew
ok stew good luck with your venture.
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Re: cam followers

Post by Canberra »

My understanding is that the cam follower is designed with the cam. A std B50 cam (MX or SS) requires flat followers or you end up with a change in timing using radiused followers.

If you intend making a different cam, the choice of follower profile is yours based on what valve timing you want. I know the flat followers are occasionally known to crack but that could be down to the thickness of stellite pad. I have no idea of whether a radiused follower is less prone to failing and would come down to the radius and thickness of the curved pad. I'm guessing that the BSA use of the flat follower was deliberate although it may have come down to cost of manufacturing flat v curved pads.

In terms of material using same material can be a problem i.e. stainless on stainless. The flat profile in another softer material than stellite would be an accident waiting to happen so suggest whatever follower you use have a stellite pad. I have used re-profiled re-ground cams in my past and they were built up with stellite before grinding so maybe stellite on stellite is not unknown.

I am sure there are more experience cam designers on the site than me. What form of cam are you considering road or competition?
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Re: cam followers

Post by stew79 »

hi, the worn cam i have is apparently not a standard 4 valve one. it has more lift on the inlet than the ex. there were probably lots of different profiles available from ccm at the time.the cam in the 79 (that was owned by eric cheney), is the same as my 80 wr which had lots of ex bob wright parts on it. to use a duller cam in the bike would spoil its character, i have been riding it since 1982 ! for piece of mind to have new parts made from the same or better material is the way to go.
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Re: cam followers

Post by Mark Cook »

The cam you were supplied will be more than enough for you, the price of two nice 3 bedroom houses were spent developing it. We are not in the habit of supplying sub standard or inappropriate parts. Midgie's cam followers will work just fine with it.
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Re: cam followers

Post by stew79 »

hi mark, thanks for your nice comments but i think i know what is "enough for me." keeping the faith with this old bike is what i want. apart from the 40mm marz, fork stanchions the bike looks and goes like it always has. replacing worn parts with new identical or perhaps slightly better ones is how i work thanks. i hope you can sell those two nice houses anyway.
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Re: cam followers

Post by midgie »

stew79 wrote:hi, the worn cam i have is apparently not a standard 4 valve one. it has more lift on the inlet than the ex. there were probably lots of different profiles available from ccm at the time.the cam in the 79 (that was owned by eric cheney), is the same as my 80 wr which had lots of ex bob wright parts on it. to use a duller cam in the bike would spoil its character, i have been riding it since 1982 ! for piece of mind to have new parts made from the same or better material is the way to go.
im glad you don't need my cam followers if im honest, as good stock for me when doing rebuilds. my association with eric cheney goes back to about 1970 up to his passing in 2001. I cant imagine him ever owning a ccm as they were seen as the 'enemy' especially when banksy left cheney in 1973 and rode for ccm. or did you mean just the camshaft he owned. regards midgie.
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Re: cam followers

Post by chucksy »

regarding your cam and followers,i had 3or4 79 4 valvers built by Mark using his cam and followers.The bikes were never,never outpaced by any of the top Maico,s or H*nda, Y*maha thumpers when we raced them in the late 2008/2010. Rideability was good,reliability was good,and top speed on stubble was a match for anything in the twinshock class. Mind you,they were running 82 mm stroke at 520cc. I cant see a problem,another motor built by a reputable builder was allways used as a back up bike,it didn,t have the go we were used to. Is yours one of the later 79,s with the steeper head angle. Mine were the horrible early ones,neither use nor ornament,so we cut the headstocks off and altered the head angle.Job done,they now run rings round and turn inside of Maico,s.AC sure got it wrong early 79!! Have fun with your bike,there,ll be more fans looking at that than any of the other bikes in the paddock,there,s just something special about them. Wish I was twenty again.
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Re: cam followers

Post by stew79 »

hi midgie i thought i replayed to you but it must have got lost? anyway, try again. the bike was bought in london in early 1982 by a friend of mine. the story was that the last owner was eric, who had fitted the yam piston and done all the other mods. i inherited the bike after the death of my friend in late 1982 and have looked after it since. i never met eric or asked him about the bike, it was just assumed to be so. as you knew him and his involvement with ccm, it could be that he done the work on the bike for someone else, but never owned it ?
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Re: cam followers

Post by stew79 »

hi chucksy i have no problem with any thing from mark as he is a good engineer, making good quality parts. i just want to keep it as it is. the 79 might be late ? frame number 79114 it turns and drifts through corners very well and is very stable. i wish i was 21 again, but with spare cash and spare time for mx !
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Re: cam followers

Post by Chris Pellett »

hi, can someone advise availability of good quality new b50 cam followers ? are radiusd ones stronger than flat ones ?
I thought pictures might help here:
The B50 uses flat followers
DSCN9796.JPG
The C15 uses curved followers
DSCN9801.JPG
I believe the 4V CCM used B50 followers re-profiled to a curve.
DSCN9278.JPG
If that's wrong please correct me

Cheers
Chris
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Re: cam followers

Post by stew79 »

hi chris, thats great, i have never seen the different types all together. the c15 ones are quite a bit shorter across the pad. mine are just flat like std b50, but the contact patch is not as long as the pad. (they could be made shorter like c15 ones) the thickness of the pad in the last picture (ccm 4 valve ?) goes to a knife edge, that looks crumbly ? but what steel are the shafts made of ? the cam people (polgain engineering) suggested en36 case hardened, but were not confident about brazing the pad to it, as this could alter the hardness. (leading to it breaking in half) bsa knew what steel, and how to do it right, that knowledge has got lost ? with out experimenting,(and breaking things) they will never be properly copied.
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Re: cam followers

Post by Chris Pellett »

I recall the Meriden Coop being very proud of their new purchase; a second spark eroder to put the oil holes into the Triumph followers.
It was the slowest process in building the Bonneville so, in theory at least, they could double production with the new machine.
Still took twenty minutes per follower so I guess quite a hard metal.
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Re: cam followers

Post by Mark Cook »

Things have moved on since than Chris. The reprofiled follower is for wilder sprint/full race cams. It's to help with the shock loading of aggressive profiles. All the CCM's used B50 style followers. It's always better to use an experienced engineering company, working without accurate engineering drawings can be very hard for some.
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Re: cam followers

Post by hwan »

There is a fundamental problem with B25/44/50 cam follower design - there isn't enough metal/strength in the flat followers to cope with even MX cam loads.
Out of the 6 i have seen, two were fractured and they all had a wear line a max load/surface speed.

I suspect the USA habit of using radiused followers go's back to their NASCAR cam experience (probably the most highly developed push rod engines) where roller cams seem to be de-rigour.

The C15 (and the similar Triumph twin) radiused followers tend not to fracture, but simply wear - probably as much due to excess spring loads and modern oils (lack of zinc and lead to prevent cat. contamination - see any forum on VW cam problems) , as anything.

In the past i have done work on hard-facing material applied by gas deposition, primarily Stellite, Colmonoy 6 and variuos ceramics (AlO2, SiN, SiC, etc.).
The former had a major problem with visible and micro-cracking - looked bad but didn't actually effect the wear rate.
Colmony 6 had by far the best RUBBING WEAR RESISTANCE - test work consisted of a sand (paving sand has most consistent grain size) water slurry between test sample and a moving belt - to create 'pure' rubbing wear.

I have on my bench a triumph-twin cam, hard-faced with Col6 and ground my Mini-Sport (@ Rochdale - using an A series profile) completely unworn - and at least 6 'std' cam's all knackered - all from the same racing engines - which says something about its resistance to wear in an engine.
I never had the need to do anything to the followers, other than re-radius them due to wear - i had no failures, even up to 10,000rpm.

Re-profiled followers from USA for their cams do seem to use gas/electrode applied h/facing as opposed to a h/face pad brazed to the parent metal - brazing is at a temperature which will effect the heat treatment of most steels.

Cooky has a jar of finished followers looking for someone to 'fix' a h/face material to .. he's not found anyone yes to do it.

I've suggested gas/electrode application but hes not keen on the idea, his experience is very different to mine on the subject.
i must admit though that something would need to be done to 'stiffen' up the follower to prevent any applied h/facing from cracking.

The relevance of my ramblings is that, any hard-facing needs a rigid parent metal for it to stay attached - C15 type followers seem better in this respect (another reason for the USA cams using radiused followers - more aggressive cam opening rates ?) ... but without the improvement .. <218
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Re: cam followers

Post by Mark Cook »

The follower puzzles are all resolved, I just don't have the time to play with yet another project. I'm looking for a teenager with at least half a brain that can and is willing to follow simple instructions. Yes the toughest problem we have ever had to deal with.
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Re: cam followers

Post by Chris Pellett »

Mark, you need a son!
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Re: cam followers

Post by Mark Cook »

I have lots, and as yet I think I should have done something productive rather than re------
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Re: cam followers

Post by stew79 »

hi hwan, thats a lot of information about this little subject. i agree that the space is a bit small for the followers and cam so nothing in there will ever be ideal. in toolmaking there are some very hard through hardening alloys that can withstand enormous loads and pressures. (arrns, or carrs, alloys spring to mind) if these were not suitable as a wearing surface, to braze a stellite pad to it after heat treatment wouldnt effect it strength to much . a cam of 40b would run fine on that. as for the radius, i had a thought. it would put more force to the left of the follower as the cam profile pushes up. with the flat follower the force to the left must be less but the bending force is greater. (more off center) could that be why the c15 ones where quicker ? (being pushed over ?) the cam company i contacted (polgain engineering) did suggest a carbide pad but the grade obviously must not to brittle. the gas deposition method i am not familiar with, is it a lo temperature thing ? to have imperfections in the surface could be an advantage to retain oil ? with so many potential customers out there for good followers i feel i must try cutting up one of my old followers and having it tested to get the composition recorded (the last time i did this sort of thing it cost £40 as a favor through a company i worked for) it could be a step nearer.
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Re: cam followers

Post by LONGSTROKE »

A quality oil and regular changes (after every scrambles meeting/ road race) perhaps? can go a long way to alleviating some of the problems, extending component life! Didn't someone call it liquid engineering! Lots of money and time as been invested in that as well !
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Re: cam followers

Post by stew79 »

hi longstroke, i only ever use r40, warm the bike up carefully without over revving it,(no tick over or slow running though) and the oil gets changed often. the none return valve in the oil feed to the rockers (about 1990) meant i could weld up the drilled and tapped hole i put in the rocker cover for an oil can, (1983) it all helps but not enough. an oil bath for the cam would be good ! or a second small oil pump just to squirt oil between the cam and followers !
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Re: cam followers

Post by beat »

stew79 wrote:an oil bath for the cam would be good ! or a second small oil pump just to squirt oil between the cam and followers !
don't think you need a third oil pump as already two are onboard.

under the correctly circumstances you can reuse a part of the oil from the scavenge pump to lubricate what ever you want ( ore it needs ).
downside on it: this oil is warmt up already...

beat
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Re: cam followers

Post by stew79 »

hi beat, i have thought about that but it could easily upset the normal flow of the oil. (leaving extra oil in the crank cases ? that would slow it down a bit) to tap of the pressure side would mean less every were else, (the pump is a bit too small anyway) so lets just re design the whole dam bike !!!!!!
stew.
ps if it was perfect, it wouldnt have any character, and no one would them !
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Re: cam followers

Post by HPbyStan »

stew79 wrote:hi longstroke, i only ever use r40, warm the bike up carefully without over revving it,(no tick over or slow running though) and the oil gets changed often. the none return valve in the oil feed to the rockers (about 1990) meant i could weld up the drilled and tapped hole i put in the rocker cover for an oil can, (1983) it all helps but not enough. an oil bath for the cam would be good ! or a second small oil pump just to squirt oil between the cam and followers !
stew
I'm surprised things last at all with that R40 cutting oil in it. I use 20W/50 Ams/oil and don't bother with all those band-aids, change the oil after the season is over and stuff still looks like new inside. Heck, this isn't 1950 any more ya know.
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Re: cam followers

Post by LONGSTROKE »

Yes Stan, but with R40 in it I bet mine smells a lot nicer - the bike I mean!
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Re: cam followers

Post by stew79 »

hi hpbystan, tell me more about this 20/50 oil, i will always listen to new ideas before going straight back to what i know. (only kidding) is it a mineral oil ? i run 20/50 classic mineral oil in some of my air cooled jap bikes but with only marginal engine protection. is r40 over there the same as we have here ? (cutting oil ?) do you mean castrol r40 bean oil with on additives. this stuff has some issues with not burning very well, going off like a food stuff, and being gummy, but its oily property's cant be beaten at any temperature. if the bike is quite tight it shouldnt burn that much, so not needing to be de coked very often. even very good mineral oil goes like water at very "very" high temps. (ok in a water cooled thing) but an over tuned old push rod single without many finns ? thrashing around a track in summer ? not much air flow through all the mud stuck every were ? could your oil be better ?
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Re: cam followers

Post by minetymenace »

Now then stew79, I know you are relatively new to the forum, but there is no need to reignite the great trans Atlantic oil debate. The last time this topic was discussed, fourteen were killed, five started knitting and three came out of the cosset. The walking wounded managed to obtain the launch codes for some ballistic missiles and are now poised in a Mexican standoff, not knowing whether to kill him, her, me or the cat. >44

I humbly suggest you read other topics about the great oil debate and keep you mind focused on the subject of this topic which is supposed to be about cam followers.
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Re: cam followers

Post by HPbyStan »

Spoil sport Gerry, we were just getting going.
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Re: cam followers

Post by stew79 »

hi hpbystan, you lot tricked me into this long running debate !!! (i have just read some of the earlier posts about it) lets never mention it again. is it safe to talk about petrol ?
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Re: cam followers

Post by minetymenace »

stew79, the Americans having been late for the last two wars want to be especially early for the next!
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Re: cam followers

Post by Andy Chaos »

You might have to call it Gas though Stew
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Re: cam followers

Post by HPbyStan »

There is a lot of "gas" on this subject
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Re: cam followers

Post by stew79 »

hi all. there has been some progress on this subject. a fixture has been made to brake some followers followers under a press, to record at what load they snap at. a new follower turned up today from hawkshaws motorcycles to compare it with old bsa ones. the firm doing the tests on there proper calibrated machine have started subbing out meat analysis to a near by company, so today they gave me a full chemical analysis print out of the shafts and the pads. when things are all broken, the internal hardness and surface hardness's, will be compared. hopefully polgain engineering will be able to make a batch of followers that are at least equal to the std bsa ones.(some of these will be tested to destruction on the press to record there strength) there is another local company i once worked for, who can do the spark eroding part, and i have found a firm in the midlands who can induction braze the stellite pads on (when i sours the right grade of stuff) next tuesday is going to be the "snapping! day !!!!!
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Re: cam followers

Post by beat »

:shock: :shock: <201
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Re: cam followers

Post by Mark Cook »

Cam followers.jpg
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Re: cam followers

Post by stew79 »

no good to me mark, im in this far, i might as well finish. here are some pics of the fixture. the force will be acting 10mm off center, on the lift side of the follower. i will add some more pics of the stress testing next week. (i predict 6 tones to break a bsa one)
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Re: cam followers

Post by Mark Cook »

If you can cut our price that will be good. We were looking to retail them at £10.00 each Though with uk wages increasing by 10% all our prices will have to go up by 20% to cover it.
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Re: cam followers

Post by minetymenace »

stew79, any chance of scanning your results an publishing them in a legible format for the greater good? (Assuming you are not doing it as a business venture)
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