c15c - B44 type frame

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c15c - B44 type frame

Post by jim-nz » Mon May 06, 2019 11:28 pm

Hi.

Can anyone confirm that the C15C frame which is similar in appearance to the later frames up to 70 B25 and B44 was first built for the 1963 model season or perhaps even earlier?

I am interested in the eligibility of this frame for pre 63 road racing. Being a 63 would still include it as a pre 63 assuming it is possible it could have been produced as early august 1962.

If i could confirm the date i would then consider any frame up to 70 to be usable as they could be made to look like the early one.

Also if any of the readers here happen to be in New Zealand and have any chassis parts for these bikes for sale i may be interested.

Cheers.
Jim.

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Re: c15c - B44 type frame

Post by Jeff K » Tue May 07, 2019 2:35 am

I have a 1963 B40 that I picked up years ago with a C stamped on the crank cases and a HC there also. The HC is for high compression -think 8.75 to 1 and I was told the C was for Competition. It is sitting in a C15C frame, number 102. I was told that they started numbering them at 100, so this found be the second frame made. I was told that it was something the local dealer/factory was playing with back in 1963. To bad you are not in Michigan, this is one project that I plan on getting rid off. It was titled as a 1963 when I got it.
Jeff
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1963 B40 LH.jpg
63 B40 RH.jpg

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Re: c15c - B44 type frame

Post by Jeff K » Tue May 07, 2019 2:48 am

I did a BSA C15C frame web search and found this:

https://www.britbike.com/bsapitstop/dat ... t1960.html

and this:

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24877/lot/415


BritBike.com

1963
Model Engne prefix Engine sequence Frame prefix Frame sequence CC

C15 SCRAMBLES C15S 4001 C15C 101 250
C15 STAR AMERICA C15B 409 C15 38035 250
C15 STARFIRE ROADSTER C15 41807 C15C 101 250
C15 STARFIRE ROADSTER C15SR 101 C15C 266 250
C15 TRIALS C15T 2001 C15C 101 250

Jeff

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Re: c15c - B44 type frame

Post by jim-nz » Tue May 07, 2019 5:03 am

Jeff K.

Hmm. I do have family in Chicago...

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Re: c15c - B44 type frame

Post by Jeff K » Wed May 08, 2019 12:05 pm

I also have a few B25 frames and a 1971 OIF 250 frame that I plan on getting rid of. time to thin down the inventory.
Jeff
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Re: c15c - B44 type frame

Post by Leif » Thu May 16, 2019 4:17 am

I don't have a 100% certain answer for you on the 63 C frame but I can share my info with you. I believe the 63 C frame was a mid-year 63 change for BSA, at least in the US. Possibly the 63 year started in England with them but they didn't start showing up in US until April or so, from what I can gather. Possibly to allow dealers to clear inventories of the now obsolete S frame? So it is a tricky question as to whether or not the C frames were a production item in late 62...? Looking at catalogs and magazine atricles from back then (American Motorcyclist for instance, in May announcing BSA's mid-year model changes), you may have a hard time documenting late 62 production. If this is AHRMA, I'll bet it has been covered before... who wouldn't want the later frame?

Jeff, that is an interesting B40 you have... we discussed it briefly a few years ago on BBF. Is that an alloy barrel, or just silver paint? I'd be interested in seeing what you're disposing of, I'm just over in the Clare area, not too far from you. Let's kick tires sometime...

Quick intro is in order... I'm a long-time lurker, new-guy poster. I'm Steve Erickson, now a resident of Michigan, USA. Unsuccessfully trying to wean myself off of BSA singles, the legs are saying no, but there is still a number of B44, B40, and C15 projects awaiting my attention. And a couple that run. So looks like I'm stuck with them for life.

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Re: c15c - B44 type frame

Post by minetymenace » Thu May 16, 2019 8:12 am

<135 to the forum Leif, glad to see you are a "Lurker turned Poster", don't forget to log your bike in the Owner's database (you too Jeff).
There is no evidence to support the notion that life is serious.
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Re: c15c - B44 type frame

Post by Leif » Thu May 16, 2019 12:58 pm

Thank you for the welcome, will do.

Jim, my apologies... I didn't notice you are in NZ, and babbled on about USA C15C. Let me try this a different way...

First, literally all of the 63 BSA sales catalogs show and describe the gooseneck frame as the 63 release. Though there were most definitely 63 C15C framed bikes... if I knew how to attach here, I could show you a half dozen of both S and C framed 63 bikes that have been at auctions in the last few years. As mentioned, there are magazine articles of the time touting the "Mid-year BSA releases", including the C framed bikes.

I own BSA C15SR 101 (engine #), mounted in frame C15C 228. This has been verified as original mating by BSAOC historian. The manufacture date was May, 1963. If only 127 frames had gone before this bike, seems very unlikely that production would have started the previous August... that would be mighty low production numbers for all 3 models, S, T, and SR.

So my conclusion would be that there probably wasn't production in 62, that it started well into the model year. But it would take someone who had done a lot more thorough research to definitely deny or confirm this, and I think you could make a case for the possibility of 62 production. Unfortunately, I can't give you any more substantial information than that.

I mentioned AHRMA... you might inquire of them if they recognize the C frame as pre-63. It could lend ammo to your argument.

Steve E.

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Re: c15c - B44 type frame

Post by Jeff K » Thu May 16, 2019 3:32 pm

Leif wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 4:17 am
I don't have a 100% certain answer for you on the 63 C frame but I can share my info with you. I believe the 63 C frame was a mid-year 63 change for BSA, at least in the US. Possibly the 63 year started in England with them but they didn't start showing up in US until April or so, from what I can gather. Possibly to allow dealers to clear inventories of the now obsolete S frame? So it is a tricky question as to whether or not the C frames were a production item in late 62...? Looking at catalogs and magazine atricles from back then (American Motorcyclist for instance, in May announcing BSA's mid-year model changes), you may have a hard time documenting late 62 production. If this is AHRMA, I'll bet it has been covered before... who wouldn't want the later frame?

Jeff, that is an interesting B40 you have... we discussed it briefly a few years ago on BBF. Is that an alloy barrel, or just silver paint? I'd be interested in seeing what you're disposing of, I'm just over in the Clare area, not too far from you. Let's kick tires sometime...

Quick intro is in order... I'm a long-time lurker, new-guy poster. I'm Steve Erickson, now a resident of Michigan, USA. Unsuccessfully trying to wean myself off of BSA singles, the legs are saying no, but there is still a number of B44, B40, and C15 projects awaiting my attention. And a couple that run. So looks like I'm stuck with them for life.

I am in Bay City. Cast Iron cylinder, clear tittle. Extra seat, New extended kick starter, Fresh bored spare cylinder with matching piston(light 4 corner scuffing), aluminum round B44 cylinder, B44 square head, And all of the parts to do the side point update, etc. Package deal. I will even toss in a a pre 71 B25/triumph 250 frame and a 71 OIL B25 frame. I need to make room. Open for offers. Sorry for Hi jacking the thread.
Jeff Klender

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Re: c15c - B44 type frame

Post by Jeff K » Thu May 16, 2019 4:50 pm

minetymenace wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 8:12 am
<135 to the forum Leif, glad to see you are a "Lurker turned Poster", don't forget to log your bike in the Owner's database (you too Jeff).
My plans are this weekend to start getting caught up on motorcycle paper work. I hope to then list Bikes, frames and engines after this and I will update the database. Looks to be about 8+ of the pre OIF and about 3+ of the OIF 250's plus several spare frames and motors etc. Funny, I just passed up buying another 71 OIL B25 yesterday for $200.00 USD. No title, complete, rough shape, motor froze up from setting, everything rusted. It has been sitting in a old tin shed for at least 20 years that I know of. A Friend of mine who I sold a last year made Triumph badged B50 MX to 20+ years ago told me that he might be selling that also. That bike has been in his garage since I sold it to him and he never started it, it is stock and is great shape ecept for the muffler. These bikes are still out there to be found.
Jeff

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Re: c15c - B44 type frame

Post by jim-nz » Sun May 19, 2019 9:49 pm

Leif thank you for the informative reply.

From what you say i agree there probably production in late 62 but i will keep searching for answers.

I have heard mention that the C15C frame was based on a works frame so i will look for reference to the works bike to see how similar it really is. i may end up in the GP class with the manx's amd 7R's not the clubman class i had intended haha.

Cheers.
Jim.

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Re: c15c - B44 type frame

Post by Gordon in NC » Mon May 20, 2019 12:48 am

Hey Jeff K.........it's Gordon Gray ( been in the shadows for a while now :cool: ) in North Carolina........PM sent.

Proud to STILL be one of the BSA unit single guys......Gordon in NC

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Re: c15c - B44 type frame

Post by Jeff K » Mon May 20, 2019 3:08 am

Hello Gordon
I am behind on a lot of things since my dad passed 9 days ago, still trying to get stuff with mom settled. I am planing on thinning out all pre 1971 250 stuff and the B40 with all of the stuff that goes with it. Too many projects, too little time. <218 I will get back to you once we get caught up. Thank you for your patience.
Back to the B40 Question. New models year started production for next years bikes in the mid summer. So you could have 1964 Model that was actually made in 1963. And then you have the problem of sometimes, the year on the Title was when the bike was sold and the title issued for the 1st time. So you could have a 1963 model sold in 1964 and titled as a 1964. I go by the many published charts that list the motor and frame numbers and match them to the year produced. So you need to asked do they want a 1963 model or a bike produced in 1963? I the case of the B40 that I have both the frame and the engine numbers indicate that it is a 1963 and so does the title. The C15C frame numbers started with Frame 101 for the Scrambler, Starfire Roadster and the Trails models. So my Frame C15C 102 would make it the second one in production for 1963. 1964 model year frame for the above bikes started with 853. So it looks like they only produced 752 the 1st year.
https://www.classicbritishspares.com/pa ... me-numbers
http://classicenglishbikes.com/tech_file/bsa.html#1963
Jeff

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Re: c15c - B44 type frame

Post by BSA_WM20 » Mon May 20, 2019 7:22 am

Down here there are 1973, 1974 1975 & 1976 A 65's
Most are 71 models, with 72 upgrades fitted and all sorts of engine & frame numbers.
A friend had a 1974 A 65 that was 10 numbers away from my USA spec 1973 and had a German compliance plate fitted to the frame & painted Interplod white.
Apparently you could get new BSA's if you lived in India up until 84

We were selling A 75's brand new up till around 1980 as they came without warranty after the factory closed so did not sell well.
Again these were a mix of model years and spec's .
All got a title for the year they were first registered so not uncommon to come across a 69 A75 titled 79
Bike Beesa
Trevor

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Re: c15c - B44 type frame

Post by Jeff K » Mon May 20, 2019 2:03 pm

Interesting how the Title, a legal document can be so wrong. Here in Michigan the Secretary of State's office is in charge of titles and registrations. Sadly they do not have a clue on the older bikes. They still demand a 17 digit VIN number on a machine that my have only had a couple of thousands made. And they still demand that that frame, engine and transmission numbers all be the same and match. Tell that to the owner of a H*nda 305. It is common knowledge that the numbers WILL be off by a couple of hundred. And it is also considered that if all of the numbers do match then they are fake.
Just about the time I make headway with the SOS manager, they retire or get transferred and you then have to start all over explaining old serial numbers to some one who was not even borne when these bikes were made and only knows what the new rule book states. Ever try to explain to some kid that the bike with Frame numbers 1111 B25 and engine number B25 1111 are the same. That it was just someone hand stamping them at the factory. Especially when as my dad used to say "the Guy has room temperature IQ on a cold day" and he does not have a clue.
Jeff

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Re: c15c - B44 type frame

Post by kommando » Mon May 20, 2019 2:44 pm

I have heard mention that the C15C frame was based on a works frame so i will look for reference to the works bike to see how similar it really is.
You need to find out about 'Black Bess', works bike for Jeff Smith, started as a 350, went to 420, then 441. It used the works frame which became the C15C frame.

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Re: c15c - B44 type frame

Post by Gordon in NC » Tue May 21, 2019 5:07 pm

Jeff......sorry about your dad. Both of mine are gone so I understand. You never really get over the loss but in time you'll get used to it.
Hang in there and I'm in not hurry.......just want to put my name in the hat for your B40 if you decide to let it go.

Oh......HEY kommando!!!!!!!!! :thumb


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Re: c15c - B44 type frame

Post by jim-nz » Tue May 21, 2019 9:32 pm

Below is a section i copied from another site http://www.gpvictor.com. i hope my copying it to here does not violate copyright issue.

What i take from reading this is that the works frame was developed for the C15 before good friday 1962. That in my mind makes the works frame pre 63 eligible.

My question from here is how similar is the works frame to a production frame and am i able to make a convincing works frame clone out of a production frame.

Also any sources of information on the works bikes or Black Bess would be useful to me.

Evolution of the Victor

It began with the C15 and Brian Martin. He took a C15 from the production line, removed the lights, added larger wheels, alloy tank and upswept exhaust and got a winner. Over the next two years Jeff Smith and Arthur Lampkin finished second in the 250 European Motocross Championship. By that time, many of the components essential to the success of a product had been developed and tested. The swan neck frame had gone to be replaced by the Victor Enduro/Roadster design. The rear hub and brake, pedal and pivot pin had been produced. When the B40 came along to be developed it benefitted from the new frame and ancillaries.

Between early 1961 and Good Friday 1962 the B40 engine was developed into the 421 and before the 1964 World Motocross Championship began the bike that would take that year’s title was created. By that time the airbox, seat, 7” front wheel with floating shoes and the front forks were ready. The frame had oil in the frame and the little tank under the airbox. It weighed 228 lbs.

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Re: c15c - B44 type frame

Post by Leif » Wed May 22, 2019 3:36 am

Kommando, wasn't the Black Bess an OIF frame? It may be a bit of a stretch to say that it developed into the C15C frame, more like it devolved into the C15C frame, for public consumption... and not a production frame in 62 in any case, definitely different animals.

Jim, I'm assuming here that your racing authority only accepts production models and frames... guess this is irrelevant if they accept competition, non-production frames... you'd then have to convince them that the C15C is the same as a "Black Bess".

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Re: c15c - B44 type frame

Post by kommando » Wed May 22, 2019 5:43 am

My question from here is how similar is the works frame to a production frame and am i able to make a convincing works frame clone out of a production frame.
The works was OIF yes but it was a C15 comp frame as the changes were very small to make it OIF, it used the top tube but had a small header oil tank where the battery tray went as per the B44GP replica's. It had nothing to do with the later 71 OIF.

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