b25ss timing cover bung plug/past shortage of B50 kickstart quadrants

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b25ss timing cover bung plug/past shortage of B50 kickstart quadrants

Post by *beezergeezer* » Tue May 28, 2019 2:35 pm

can anyone shed any light on this, I have a late b25ss goldstar and the outer timing case has a a factory fitted filler / bung in it,
Is it a B25 one as I can not see the purpose of the plug arrowed, was hoping it was access for the selecter for adjustment, but it does not line up with that, I can not see any pictures of other b25ss goldstars with a similar plug on the case,
can anyone shed any light on this,

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Re: b25ss timing cover bung plug

Post by minetymenace » Tue May 28, 2019 3:17 pm

My guess is it is not "factory fitted", but a mod by a previous owner the reason for which has been lost in time.....it is at this moment that an expert pipes up and informs the world that it was a flop-jock permitting the longitudinal spline shafter to be analysed....are there any markings inside the case? If it was an intentional factory mod, I would expect to see the case beefed up on the inside in that area to allow some meat for the thread to bite...what thread is it, bet its metric! Points wire comes out at a funny angle too...
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Re: b25ss timing cover bung plug

Post by *beezergeezer* » Tue May 28, 2019 4:20 pm

how do i post photos in my message?
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it is definitely a factory fitting as there is a casting lug (see photo of inside) looks like a course unc thread on the bung tho could have been re tapped as bung is stainless.
have looked through photos of other BSA unit Singles B50 B40 etc but not seen another...bike is late 71 UK model and left factory for Scotland went to Victor Devine Motorcycles of Glasgow ...

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Re: b25ss timing cover bung plug

Post by SteveS » Tue May 28, 2019 4:50 pm

Hi

I believe this was a feature on some of the BSA WDB40 models as there was a different requirement for establishing the gearbox oil level.

This was not a standard feature on oif variants that I am aware of. However as the boss is already cast in place a PO may have made use of it. Someone may be able to confirm but I think you have a slightly earlier outer cover

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Re: b25ss timing cover bung plug

Post by minetymenace » Tue May 28, 2019 4:56 pm

How to post pictures: See here

Ummm thinking about it, I think I have a similar timing cover somewhere, but still at a loss as to why it is there, maybe to get it out of top gear when the spring breaks...most of my stuff is in storage at the moment, and will take a month or two to retrieve it, but I'll have a rummage when I can. I'm still curious about the points wire grommet location.

Steve, could be a level, squaddies are incapable of pouring in a measured amount...

I can't see the part numbers in the photos, how do they compare?
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Re: b25ss timing cover bung plug

Post by kommando » Tue May 28, 2019 5:24 pm

WDB40G standard fitment but just not as large a nut, note these WD engines were being still made into 71 so who knows if its a Previous owners mod or some WDB40G outer timing cover was fitted when the std ones ran out on the line.

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Re: b25ss timing cover bung plug

Post by *beezergeezer* » Tue May 28, 2019 5:32 pm

part number is 70- 9395 and who ever machined the case machined a flat surface for a fibre/copper washer on the out side and the threaded hole is centered to the casting lug, indicating a factory job,
i have remove the bung and test fitted the cover and it does not appear to give access to anything,


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Re: b25ss timing cover bung plug

Post by hhh » Tue May 28, 2019 5:55 pm

I'd be suspicious that a centered machining job were factory! This cover with the same part number has the boss but no hole:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BSA-B25-B44-Ou ... SwxYxUv~CG

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Re: b25ss timing cover bung plug

Post by *beezergeezer* » Tue May 28, 2019 11:59 pm

I think i may have found the answer to my question......
thanks to kommando who mentioned that it was possibly a WD B40 if googled and fount this...

https://cdn.globalauctionplatform.com/b ... iginal.jpg

it shows the bung plug and now i can see why ...possibly the oil filler on top of the gearbox was just a filler plug bolt on the 1968 model shown, presumably BSA had an idea to save money ..put a plastic filler bung with a dipstick on it a simple injection moulding and saved on machining costs....too little too late....lol

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Re: b25ss timing cover bung plug

Post by kommando » Wed May 29, 2019 8:05 am

Steve's mentioned it first ;) , it is the oil level plug but not sure it's set at the normal level as going by the factory literature the gearbox capacity was larger for the WDB40G. Maybe they distrusted the squadrons checking the level often enough and so increased the oil level to be safe.

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Re: b25ss timing cover bung plug

Post by BSA_WM20 » Wed May 29, 2019 9:31 am

Interesting.
Definately not a B25ss part and not a B40 GA part either
Might be for a B40GB.
A bit miffed about how it would be for the gearbox oil as that section of the cavity between the inner & outer cover should be dry.
If it is full of gear oil then that would make the engine crankcase breather a bit funny .
Not to mention a silly thing like a gasket required to keep some of the gearbox oil inside.
They leak bad enough from the kickstart & gearchange lever as it is.
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Re: b25ss timing cover bung plug

Post by minetymenace » Wed May 29, 2019 10:55 am

that section of the cavity between the inner & outer cover should be dry.
I think it is the gearbox side of the wall, so it will be wet, the breather is forward of the wall...the bottom of the bung is just below the top of the kickstart oil seal, so about right for some sort of level. The B40 picture had a box above the gearbox making access to a (would be) dip-stick tricky, so I can kind of see the thinking...
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past shortage of B50 kickstart quadrants

Post by *beezergeezer* » Wed May 29, 2019 12:15 pm

Hi Guy back to mess with you brains again
this is kind of a follows on from my last post yesterday and also similar to the post regarding fleetstar kickstart quadrant ...

I went to replace my B25ss kick start quadrant, so consulted my parts book and ordered the part from PES part number 57-4341 ..
nice well made part and fitted it,
then went to fit my timing case outer cover and it was 3/8" proud and would not go on any further, this is why i was looking into the case which seems to be B40WD one,

I spoke with pes and they said there was a time when B50 quadrants were not available and suggested a P/O had fitted a B40 one with some machining, this would explain the B40 outer cover...

Now how much work is there to do that?
is it the timing inner cover gearbox cluster quadrant and outer cover? or just quadrant and outer cover?

I have checked how far the layshaft comes through the inner cover holding the gear cluster and it comes through 3/8" is this correct?
are the gear cluster ratios the same on a B40 compared to a B25ss ? if they have been changed

I have ridden it before rebuild for over 1000 miles and it is ok I am running a 17T gearbox sprocket to a 56t rear and run on Twinduro 400 x 18 rear tyre 1 size up and all seems ok I am 16 stone in my gear and loads of big hills here in cornwall.
it pulls ok on hills .
it is worth mentioning that the old quadrant gear is located by a keyway on to its shaft, again is this right, as if this is so I can order another B40 quadrant and simply refit...I will post some photos later and re edit this but guys I nee some info as I am considering going back to STD B25 bits but unsure as to how much work that will be.....ANYONE OUT THERE THAT CAN HELP?

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Re: past shortage of B50 kickstart quadrants

Post by minetymenace » Wed May 29, 2019 1:46 pm

is it the timing inner cover gearbox cluster quadrant and outer cover? or just quadrant and outer cover?
All of them.......maybe

My bad, I got this round the wrong way...have now corrected it

Because BSA swapped the ratchet round, the pinion and quadrant now further IN on B50 style kickers.

I think you need to positively identify the bits you have (old and new), publish some photos and we can come up with a solution.

The EARLIER mainshaft will take the NEWER kicker bits. I think (all my parts are in storage so I can't check) but the inner cover may be different but if you revert to the old kicker bits, you may just need a spacer between the outer cover and the quadrant. So I think you need the earlier pinion, ratchet, and quadrant and a spacer and you will be good to go. Just depends on what cases you have and if they have been machined, final judgement when you put some pictures up...

PS if you want to swap your late FS cases (not covers), I have a slightly older oif set, but again they are in storage as I'm moving house, so it will be a month or so before I can check what I actually have....
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Re: b25ss timing cover bung plug

Post by *beezergeezer* » Wed May 29, 2019 3:22 pm

Hi Guy back to mess with you brains again
this is kind of a follows on from my last post yesterday and also similar to the post regarding fleetstar kickstart quadrant ...

I went to replace my B25ss kick start quadrant, so consulted my parts book and ordered the part from PES part number 57-4341 ..
nice well made part and fitted it,
then went to fit my timing case outer cover and it was 3/8" proud and would not go on any further, this is why i was looking into the case which seems to be B40WD one,

I spoke with pes and they said there was a time when B50 quadrants were not available and suggested a P/O had fitted a B40 one with some machining, this would explain the B40 outer cover...

Now how much work is there to do that?
is it the timing inner cover gearbox cluster quadrant and outer cover? or just quadrant and outer cover?

I have checked how far the layshaft comes through the inner cover holding the gear cluster and it comes through 3/8" is this correct?
are the gear cluster ratios the same on a B40 compared to a B25ss ? if they have been changed

I have ridden it before rebuild for over 1000 miles and it is ok I am running a 17T gearbox sprocket to a 56t rear and run on Twinduro 400 x 18 rear tyre 1 size up and all seems ok I am 16 stone in my gear and loads of big hills here in cornwall.
it pulls ok on hills .
it is worth mentioning that the old quadrant gear is located by a keyway on to its shaft, again is this right, as if this is so I can order another B40 quadrant and simply refit...I will post some photos later and re edit this but guys I nee some info as I am considering going back to STD B25 bits but unsure as to how much work that will be.....ANYONE OUT THERE THAT CAN HELP?

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Re: b25ss timing cover bung plug

Post by kommando » Wed May 29, 2019 4:17 pm

You know the B40 one fits but is worn, so send the B50 one back and ask for it to be replaced by a B40 one (which should be the same as the B44 one and middle run of production of B25, the early B25 may have a thinner kickstart shaft, the early B40 one did). The key way was not on genuine BSA kickstart quadrants, looks to be a cost cutting exercise to lower production costs. Then document the setup for the next owner so they do not get caught out.

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Re: past shortage of B50 kickstart quadrants

Post by kommando » Wed May 29, 2019 4:19 pm

Could we have only one version of this post not 2 ?

Edit by MM: Your wish is my kommando

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Re: b25ss timing cover bung plug/past shortage of B50 kickstart quadrants

Post by gunnag » Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:12 pm

Regarding the plug on the outer gearbox/timing cover, its definitely meant to be an oil filler/level plug for a B40WD. Have a look at the B40WD workshop manual on the BSA unit Singles website Here plate A10.

There's also a handy B40WD parts list Here which shows the plug on plate A11 part 20 which is shown as part 40-668 or 40-668-003 - Screwed plug outer, two sizes appear to be listed - 1/2 inch bsf or 11/32 thd lg? Not sure why two sizes are listed.

I once owned a B40WD engined B25 which had the gearbox filler plug, I don't remember any leaks from the timing side and looking at the parts list there does seem to be a seal fitted on the kickstart (plate A9, part 28, 40-3281).

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