B44 - Vape Electronic Ignition

Here you can talk about all kind of TECH for the B50 B44 B25 And Other BSA unit Singles

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B44 - Vape Electronic Ignition

Post by Terryb » Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:43 pm

Has anybody had any experience in fitting a Wassell Ignition Kit - Micro-MK1 by Vape.

I'm thinking of fitting one to my 1968 B44SS (US Spec) it has a 12v positive earth and has a Zener Diode and standard Rectifier fitted. I've read some where that it will make it more difficult to start.

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Re: B44 - Vape Electronic Ignition

Post by Jeff K » Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:18 pm

It sounds backwards, but all of the electronic ignitions that I have read and seen do not '"advance" the timing. They timed and set to start out at full advance and then calculate a "Delay" based on the rpm. So when you first turn the ignition on and kick it over. They are design not to fire until the unit senses movement/rpm and then it goes into full "delay" to prevent kick back. As the rpm's speed up, the delay lessens until it reaches a point where it has no delay, at this point it is firing at the same point at a mechanical unit would be at full advance. So for the 1st full rotation, they do not fire and since the ignition rotates at 1/2 of the crank. You need to do two revolutions of the crank before the unit resets and triggers a spark when starting it. A mechanical point ignition will fire as soon as the points open. So the electronic ignition will require a extra revolution before it will fire.
Jeff

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Re: B44 - Vape Electronic Ignition

Post by Terryb » Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:19 pm

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the reply and yes it's made by Vape and marketed by Vassell.

According to Vape's instructions, you set the gizmo up for a B44 at 24 degs BTDC initially and then check with a strobe and adjust. I'm sure that when I set my points timing up using a piston height of 9/33" BTDC, the strobe was showing about 34 degs, before I gave it a fist full of throttle. So I'm assuming that the magic box that comes with it, works it out.

According to the sales pitch, it claims that starting is easier <209

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Re: B44 - Vape Electronic Ignition

Post by hhh » Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:53 pm

For any analog magnetic reluctor style ignition, the most significant advance effect is from the laws of physics: the faster the magnet spins, the greater its emitted field at a given distance. This causes the ignition to trigger earlier as RPM increases because the same field is generated at an earlier point in the cycle with the magnets farther from their pickups.

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Re: B44 - Vape Electronic Ignition

Post by Jeff K » Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:28 pm

Yes, much the same way that a non chrono speedometer works, more rpm = stronger "pull". I have not used a magnet triggered EI in a while. I have been using hall effect or optically triggered ones. I much prefer the later. I have used several of the Power Arc ones and have been very satisfied with the simple set up and how well they run.
Jeff

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Re: B44 - Vape Electronic Ignition

Post by hhh » Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:04 am

The magnetic advance curve is not optimum. It doesn't advance quickly enough and then keeps advancing when it should stop.

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Re: B44 - Vape Electronic Ignition

Post by FGF » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:56 am

On my B50SS , the wassel was fitted with a very big advance static position : nearly 25 - 30 ° more than the stock 34°.
it started once and the idle was fair.
i 've not run with it because of many other problems . ( wet sumping , clutch worn ...)

Barry told us that it heated the coil when running ...

and many users are satisfied like norton commando' s owners .

maybe it 's the electronic miracle , some work fair and others not.
are you a lucky rider ?

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Re: B44 - Vape Electronic Ignition

Post by skippy » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:29 am

For electronic ignitions you set them to full advance which is 34deg for B50 then they retard at lower revs till they reach the full advance at their set revs. the magnet movement has no effect on this.
Doug
Should never have sold them old motorbikes

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Re: B44 - Vape Electronic Ignition

Post by hhh » Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:57 pm

skippy wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:29 am
For electronic ignitions you set them to full advance which is 34deg for B50 then they retard at lower revs till they reach the full advance at their set revs. the magnet movement has no effect on this.
Your first sentence is true. Your second sentence is not; for it to be true, the laws of physics would need to be suspended inside a British bike's point chamber. The amplitude of the electrical signal generated in the pickup coils from the moving magnet increases as RPM increases due to the increase in field strength. This means for a given threshold voltage, it will be arrived at sooner at higher RPM than lower. There is no escaping this. An optical arrangement escapes this inherent behaviour of accelerating magnets. The Boyer also incorporates an integrator circuit which affects the advance curve somewhat.

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Re: B44 - Vape Electronic Ignition

Post by minetymenace » Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:24 pm

Got to chip in here:
hhh is correct...ish. The output from the coil is dependant on the rate of change of the magnetic field, not the strength (in this case with a fixed magnet the field strength is constant), so the faster the magnets passes the coil the higher the output voltage. This is very much like what is going on under the opposite side of the engine with the alternator, faster the magnet spins the high the alternator output....so far so good. However, if this is going to be turned into a timed trigger you may design the pickup so that this characteristic is used to your advantage by setting the advance curve for the ignition and use a simple voltage level to trigger the spark. There is certainly at least one very expensive ignition system that uses this principle.

On the other hand, it is simple to use the rate of change of voltage in the coil to determine the rpm of the motor and the integral (ass hhh says) of the voltage waveform to determine a reference point, designing an analogue circuit that does this would not have been beyond the abilities of an electronics student 30 years ago, but would more likely be resolved digitally now, in which case you would probably use an optical pick-up for simplicity (Sachs electronic systems use both types of pickup, the inductive one has tiny coils I guess to keep the variation to a minimum)

Analysing an individual element of the circuit may be fun, but if you don't know how the rest of it works you have to treat everything as one big black box. Mark Cook has the kit to analyse the timing curves of ignition systems, I'd love to have a play, but know in my heart I don't have the time.
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Re: B44 - Vape Electronic Ignition

Post by hhh » Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:40 pm

Thanks for the clarification, minety, I should've written "force" instead of "field."

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Re: B44 - Vape Electronic Ignition

Post by minetymenace » Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:52 pm

:ok May the force be with you and leave you out standing in your field!
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Re: B44 - Vape Electronic Ignition

Post by skippy » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:38 am

Sorry i was looking at my pazon where the magnet and the coil are a trigger to the electronics and i guess there could be some minute change in timing from speed but it triggers at a very low voltage because it has to works when kicked over. Any excess voltage produced via speed is negated.
My BMW uses a hall efect trigger to do the same thing, But it still uses a mechanicial advance.
Doug
Should never have sold them old motorbikes

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