Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

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gunnag
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Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by gunnag »

Ive just had a quick attempt at fitting some new rubber smarties to my B44 clutch hub.

Despite lubricating the rubbers with liquid soap, I found it really hard to get two rubbers adjacent to the spider. The rupert ratio book suggests a firm thumb will push them in but IM finding this virtually impossible!

Any tips on getting them in would be appreciated :smile:
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by baz »

the way i do it is i took an old clutch centre ground 2 flats on it so i could clamp it in my vice i then put the clutch hub on it so only the spider was held,then i got a spare clutch plate and welded a bar to it then i put the tool on the clutch hub and pulled it one way place 4 smarties in then the other way for the other 4 its very easy this way and is worth making a tool because you may be seeing those smarties again! i think i saw an old BSA factory film on youtube where they were doing this on a automatic set up regards baz
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by Mark Cook »

I just stick all 4 of one side in, then weadle in the little buggers dry with a large blunt screwdriver one by one.

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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by Mr Mike »

A guy told he he squeezes them in a pair of vice grips and then freezes them. The go in easy while still frozen. Never tried it myself.

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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by TomH »

I put the 4 easy ones in first. Then I compressed the remaining ones in an adjustable spanner (the large jawed right-angle type) until their width was just less than the gap to go into; lined them up, put a screwdriver in the jaws behind them and pushed them in. A little lubrication helps too. :mrgreen:

HTH

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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by ripellett »

I pretty much do what Baz says.
My tool is the clutch locking tool, made of one friction and one plain plate welded or bolted together, with an 18" bar welded or bolted to it.
I have an old clutch hub welded to an old mainshaft which goes in the vice.
If your gearbox is apart you can fix your hub to your mainshaft with the woodruff, nut and washers and if you have allloy jaws in your vice you shouldn't damage anything. You still need at least one plain clutch plate but as has been said these tools are likely to get used again.
I don't use any lubricant.
Hope that helps
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by gunnag »

Cheers guys, lots of usefull suggestions :grin:

Actually, I was thinking about the freezing suggestion and think it might work. I guess you would have to compress the rubber in a clamp, freeze it while still clamped then while still frozen remove from clamp and pop it in the hub. I guess the rubber would hold its compressed shape until it thaws?
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by Mark Cook »

I'm shocked, it's really not that hard to do. I remember thinking it was first time around. By the time you do a few they almost fall in. Any one local to me that is struggling with them, I'd happily demo for them.

One thing to make sure about is that you don't use the ones that disolve in oil.

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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by ripellett »

Mark,
'then WEADLE in the little buggers dry with a large blunt screwdriver'
Interesting that you use the Old English word that is both the noun for a beggar and the verb to beg. Strange how old words hang on in different parts of the country.
The more usual 'Wheedle' meaning to coax or cajole, is obviously derived from your usage especially as both versions implied an underlying dishonesty.
I've only ever encountered 'Weadle' because I read a lot of old books, yes even older than BSA manuals!
What chance some of our friends from overseas understanding us?
But back on topic:
I was shown the method I described by an ex Meriden worker a long time ago, when the rubbers came in two sizes, 4 large and 4 small. They completely filled the space available and compressed only very slightly under great pressure. I have heard it suggested that they effectively locked the centre solid and the 'chocolate buttons' were introduced to leave space to allow the rubber to actually deform under pressure and truly act as a shock absorber.
I agree with you they are relatively easy to fit.
Now I' m off to try and dissolve my rubbers in oil.
Roy in England
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by minetymenace »

“then WEADLE in the little buggers dry with a large blunt screwdriver'”
Interesting that you use the Old Pogle word that is both the noun for a small insect that eats rubber and the verb to relieve oneself. Strange how backward the inbred inhabitants of the outer reaches of Her Magisties Kingdom appear, but the modern spin is that they are quaint.
The more usual 'Wheedle' meaning to attempt to start a BSA single, is obviously derived from the typical usage:
“Them theres a wheedling ‘is Beesa”
Especially as both versions implied a rustic (or maybe rusty) double entendre for taking a leak (akin to scrumping apples (taking a leek :???: )) or attempting to start an old motorbike.
Seriously Chris, “weadles” are alive and kicking down in Wessex and I like to think the tone implies less scruples rather than less honesty.

Q. What chance some of our friends from overseas understanding us?
A. Two chances, rock all and none!!

Are "Smarties" international?
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by ripellett »

Minty,
You seem to have confused me with my little brother Chris.
I'm the good looking intelligent one.
If weadles are alive and kicking in Wessex perhaps Chris could do with some.
Last time I spoke to him he had been 'Wheedling' and bent his kickstarter!
Smarties? Liqourice M&M's.
You've gotta larf.
Roy in England (not in Scotland)
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by rhino »

<017 :laugh :laugh :laugh
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by steve m »

to mis-quote mark twain.
" two great counties, separated only by a common language". or some such twaddle, or is that tweedle, got to go, i'm bustin' for a piddle...in my own canoe, of course.

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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by minetymenace »

Chris/Roy, sorry!
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by gunnag »

Well I had a go at weedling in the little buggers in and either I havnt got the technique right or my rubbers are especially hard :(

I then tried the freezing technique. Using an old vice, I compressed 4 rubbers really tight and then placed the vice & rubbers in the freezer for an hour.

On removing the rubbers from the freezer all rubbers stay compressed while still frozen and can be fitted in the clutch instantly :ban
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Weedle Bar

Post by Chris Pellett »

DSCN7746.JPG
My Clutch locking tool: Twice as long as Roy's; only requires two fingers effort!
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steve m
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by steve m »

now THAT's what i call a weedle bar.
next time i go a'weedlin' i'll know exactly what my equipement should look like. ;-) :grin: :thumb .
thanks chris.

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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by Norman_John »

Hi there,
Has anyone thought of using or has actually used a liquid cast silicone / rubber / neoprene for the shock-absorber?

I think you may be able to get a great result with a liquid as it will fill the whole hub cavity unlike the smarties. Also if you use a liquid, you can slightly offset the spider and create a thicker cushion section on the drive side where there is more need than on the over-run side.

I'd like to hear your ideas, and your stories of successes and failures!

Cheers
John
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by b50root »

Hi John. I have also have that thought before but I was thinking Liquied Urethane.

I don´t belive in Neoprene ( to soft )
Rubber has to stand oil.

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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by beat »

Norman_John wrote:thicker cushion section on the drive side where there is more need than on the over-run side.
wrong I say.
the force to the gearbox and primary drive is bigger from the rearwheel side then from the crankshaft side.
ore - has ever anyone shered of the wodroff key on the mainshaft wheilst speeding up the bike ?

for myself, I have brocken them always by shifting one ( ore two ) gear down by just touching the cluch a bit " short " :oops:

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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by Mr Mike »

I think Beat may be onto something here. Consider for a momeent how fast the the engine gets to higher rpms when you down shift. Then consider how fast the it happens when accelerating. Of course if you you use the clutch very hard on up shifting you might approach the same forces as a down shift.

On the other hand I have never stripped a woodruff key on the clutch.

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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by b50root »

Think you wrong there.

If you compare the time 0 - 100 kmh with full throttle
or 100 - 0 with motor braking you will see that the power is much more on the acceleration.

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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by beat »

b50root wrote:Think you wrong there
in my opinion, it is not the ascelerating nor the descelerating of the engine that counts, -it is the peack wich comes up by a fast " load change ".
in MX, the fastest load changes are done by doing a jump, wheilst in the hihgt, close trottle and reving the engine down, then , when the rear wheel comes to the ground the flywheel works as a breack-mass and the highest peack for the damper is on.
same effect by shifting gears down on road use. you can do it in the way as the black stripe on the bitumen indicates a very high peack, - and this in every gear !
can you do black stripes with your B50 by shifting gears up :?: if yes, how many horspower your engine counts :?: :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by b50root »

beat wrote:the fastest load changes are done by doing a jump
Yes you are probably right there. The problem for me is that I don´t think MX, just road driving .

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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by Mark Cook »

I've been selling nitrile cush rubbers that we have custom made just for us, for many years now. These have a much higher oil resistance than the ones you can get from every other source. I'm puzzeled that I've never had a clutch hub back for a rebuild. They can't last for ever :?: :?: A little off topic, you don't get any cush rubber problems with the PES clutch ;-)

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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by beat »

many years ago, my father has produced and sold the own made wheels and dumpers.
this was for engines with around 750 cc and around 70Hp. evan there, we had to realise as the bigger load is coming to the rubbers from the rear wheel side then from the engine side !
just counting the time, there it is in reverse : mostly is a load on the rubbers from the engine side, yes, - but the bigger peacks are from the rear wheel.
beat
( will see to find some pictures of the ones we made around 1973 )
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by roadplough »

Would it be the engine or the back wheel that could do this?

Image

After cleaning up the drum I'm pretty sure I replaced the broken spider tabs (for the photo) the way they were when I discovered this mess while attending to a gearbox problem. I'd no idea there was anything wrong with the cush 'till I noticed the pins were loose and the face plate was nearly adrift.
A set of Mark's buttons, 4 are ok but what remains of the other 4 can be seen spread about in granular form. The disintegrated buttons were squashed behind the broken tabs. Twaddley amazing.
Also the photo doesn't show the crack right through the width of the drum in one of the grooves.
The tab stubs are worn on both edges where they've been hitting the rounded bits, hard to say which direction cops the most abuse.
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by minetymenace »

Roadie, from the way the lugs have sheared off, I'd say the back wheel driving the engine when they broke...
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by Mark Cook »

I'm impressed Roady, at least they never went mushy.
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by beat »

a very impressing model it is !
for me, I can hardly beleve as the engine is such powerfull to do this.....
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by HPbyStan »

Youse guys got me to wonderin.
Check out these ebay USA "gems"
#310110680470 '74 Aermacchi 175 40 hole rear hub. ( in '75 accountants redesigned it )
#350160143219 cush drive/brake/sprocket thingie.
#120254714120 shows the hub after the accountants had at it in '75 but also shows the rubber cush things.

Just a little "outside the box low buck thinkin"
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by minetymenace »

I know where you are comming from Stan, if you look half way down this page, you will see the rear hub Mark found for my beast. (I'll have to show you how to do links Stan!!)
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by HPbyStan »

minetymenace wrote:I know where you are comming from Stan, if you look half way down this page, you will see the rear hub Mark found for my beast. (I'll have to show you how to do links Stan!!)
Thanks Gerry, but showing me and teaching me may be two different things. It's a good thing I know "quite" a few things because I can't seem to learn another darn thing and at the rate I'm forgetting things,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ahhhh, don't remember where I was going with this.
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by Mark Cook »

Stan's first pic is the same as yours Gerry.
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by beat »

hi al,
a way to have a damper on the rear wheel was this:
Magn. L rad  mit Elast in Magn.
Magn. L rad mit Elast in Magn.
so the damper uses K*wasak* rubbers ,
kawa 750 rubb.
kawa 750 rubb.
NOTE : the rubbers are not outh of the centre of the press!
rubbers centered in way of action
rubbers centered in way of action
this lightweight stuff ( in Magnesium ) was used in sidecar MX and sidecar flattrack races.
the rubbers has shown, as the forces from the rearwheel are ad least as big as the ones from the engine side ! ( engine up to 90 HP ) yet, they have been evan bigger from rear !!
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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by Canberra »

Just spotted something.

For those of you with the P92 drawings take a look at the three spring clutch assembly and see which rubber is the biggest. That indicates where the biggest load is i.e. drive

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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by Canberra »

I purchased new retaining plate inner (I had a bad thread on one stud) and it came with 3 tapped holes and one drilled out. Probably a factory reject. I replaced the clutch centre and rubbers.

I put 4 rubbers in (2 opposing each side) singing that old english folk song "A Weadling I will Go" (I believe it was written some time ago by some wayward mintrel called Mark something or other) with lashings of soap and thought I would try to finish off with a flourish from the freezer. Put last 4 into a small vice, compressed them and popped in the freezer for half hour. Great - both methods work but second is better especially if you have forgotten the words of the folk song in frustration.

As a matter of interest the screws holding the inner and outer plates together are 2BA and not 1 BA in the 71 manual. I used 2 screws to tighten the plates and compress the rubbers sideways then fitted 2 rivets by drilling out the inner plate to suit with a rather hard drill, countersunk lightly, fitted the 2 rivets then removed the screws and did the same with the drills to put the remaining 2 rivets in.

I have a new clutch with clutch chainwheel and some new plates to go with it. I added an extra driving plate and the set up works very nicely with one of Marks pressure plates. I noticed I had to polish spring cups and slightly relieve the clutch centre where the 4 spring cups go as I found some resistance to movement. It works a treat now even with new springs it has a perfect sliding motion without straining my left hand.

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Re: Tips fitting Clutch Rubber Smarties

Post by Mark Cook »

Well done John. There is a section in the CCM manual about spending time with the clutch to get it just right, and commenting on the fact that it's well worth the effort.

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